Reed Holden is an author and keynote speaker for Negotiating with Backbone and Pricing with Confidence. Reed provides B2B pricing and negotiating advice to clients building go-to-market strategies to drive price leadership, selling backbone, and profitable growth.
Dr. Holden specializes in helping sales teams avoid the Procurement Buzz Saw by implementing strategies to recognize and counter margin-reducing buying tactics.
In this episode, Reed talks about how Pricing has changed in the last twenty years. With the new normal still to stay for some time, he advises to fundamentally change the way we communicate with our people and pursue our customers to have a sustainable relationship strategy. We need to adjust our prices to reflect that change in our business model. But at the same time, we have to accommodate the changes in the customer’s needs.
Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Find out the things to adopt and execute in your business to adjust to the new normal
- Learn how to execute prices better at this time and form strategic partnerships with your clients for a sustainable relationship
- Learn to recognize how the demand structure has changed in most industries so you can prepare your leadership team to think about using price to accomplish whatever objectives you have
“If I look at the biggest mistake companies make today, it is that they don’t understand the customers. They don’t understand how they use this stuff.”
– Reed Holden
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Topics Covered:
01:19 – How he got started in Pricing
02:29 – How to stop losing price in the last mile of pricing
04:28 – What gives companies the ability to control price better these days
04:50 – Why you need to understand your pricing tools
07:36 – Understand your analytics
08:42 – Understanding surrogate value
09:41 – How demand structures in some industries are changing that you need to recognize
11:04 – What you need to do in the meantime that things are not going back to normal
12:45 – The reality of the whole retail industry out of the window now
14:04 – Pricing based on how customer value your product during this new normal
15:53 – Cost as a justification to raise prices
18:08 – His plans of retiring
21:10 – What does strategic partnership implies
21:15 – What a true picture of a strategic partnership is
23:07 – His thoughts on ‘charge customers with what they are willing to pay’
25:23 – Loyalty and segmentation
27:54 – His important pricing advice that has a great impact on one’s business
29:19 – Why you need to ask your customers
Key Takeaways:
“If people don’t understand the software and the methods they’re using, they encounter problems.” – Reed Holden
“You need to understand the tools, especially in today’s world, how you have to change those tools to accommodate the new world.” – Reed Holden
“You got to recognize that the demand structure of that particular market has changed. The demand structure of restaurants, of movies, of the automobile industry, of many industries is changing dramatically.” – Reed Holden
“You have to understand how that demand structure is changing. And as a pricing person, you have to prepare your leadership team for not doing the stuff they did six months ago, but changing how they think about using price to accomplish whatever their objectives are.” – Reed Holden
“The whole retailing industry is out the window right now. They should have seen that coming 20 years ago when Amazon started making the push. And instead, they demanded, they pay the price now.” – Reed Holden
Resources / People Mentioned:
- Pricing with Confidence by Reed K. Holden
- The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Profitable Decision-Making 2nd Edition by Reed K. Holden
- Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed K. Holden
- Wall Street Journal
- Fortune Magazine
- JetBlue Airlines
- Southwest Airlines
- Bob Kaplan
- Thomas Nagle
Connect with Reed Holden:
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Reed Holden
If I look at the biggest mistake companies make today is, they don’t understand the customers. They don’t understand how they use this stuff.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Welcome to impact pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the unbreakable relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Today, our guest is the one and only Reed Holden. Here are three things you should know about Reed before we started, he is truly a luminary in pricing. He’s been in pricing since 1987. What is that? 33 years of my Math, not even close. He co-authored the second and third editions of the book Strategy and Tactics of Pricing, a book that I use when I taught at Ohio State and so I practically memorized it. And in 2002, he founded Holden Advisors. They’re still going strong, but he’s trying to figure out how to actually retire. Welcome, Reed.
Reed Holden
Thanks, Mark. It’s great to be here. And I’m hoping everyone is well.
Mark Stiving
Oh, me, too. How did you get into Pricing 33 years ago?
Reed Holden
So, I had decided to try college teaching. And you know, part of that is you get to get your union ticket, which is the doctorate and I decided to get it at Boston University. And there was a junior faculty member who had just started there by the name of Tom Nagel. When he published his first book, he needed someone to write the teacher’s manual. So, I started out a relationship with Tom. And it turned into a strategic pricing group, and we had a heck of a ride together.
Mark Stiving
Nice. And so, you’ve been in Pricing pretty much your entire career!
Reed Holden
Actually, not entirely. Before, I was in sales, sales management, marketing management.
Mark Stiving
And so, it kind of makes sense that Holden Advisors, at least what I always believe, was you guys spent a bunch of time working with sales teams, trying to figure out how to get sales teams to capture more value. How did you get into that whole idea that says, ‘I’m going to go in’? What did you actually do, teach salespeople? Or what was that relationship like?
Reed Holden
So, it was interesting, I just said that I started out before I went to teaching and pricing in sales and sales management. And I made a conscious decision to get away from sales because it seemed to me that there are a lot of people doing it and I enjoyed marketing, I subsequently enjoyed pricing. And we had published a book, ‘The Pricing with Confidence’ book in 2008, just in time for the Great Recession. And after, I think a year we got a call from one of the very large consulting companies that were having problems with their pricing. And, you know, my first reaction was, you’re a big consulting company, what have you done, and they sent me a 300-page report about what they were supposed to do. And they came back and I saw, I asked them, ‘What did you do?’ from this, and they said nothing. So, I agreed to get on to Sydney, Australia. And, you know, interviewed, a lot of the partners, tried to understand the problem. And I realized that they didn’t have a pricing problem, they actually had a negotiating problem. And it just so happened that my academic research was on procurement people. I had been a procurement person. And we were able to come up with a very simple one for them to think about to stop losing price in what we call the last mile of pricing, which is the sales. And in this particular case, the partnership gem, and that led us to negotiate with backbone and we now do an awful lot of actually online training now with salespeople, and we do an awful lot of coaching, which is a blast.
Mark Stiving
I got to tell you; I love both of those books. They’re fantastic books, our listeners if you haven’t read those yet. They’re well worth it. Very interesting.
Reed Holden
Very thank you, Mark.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, you’re welcome. So how do you think Pricing has changed in 33 years since you’ve been in it?
Reed Holden
Much more use of the software. There is a name of the game to that mark. There are good things and bad things but a lot more companies have adopted software, a lot more companies have adopted analytics, which gives them the ability to control price better.
Mark Stiving
And I was waiting for you to say but it also…
Reed Holden
I didn’t need to do that. I knew you are going to say that. What you wanted to do is you want to hear the other side of that. I stay with, I think that the analytics is great. The problem that we see with the pricing people is they don’t understand the engines behind the analytics. And the engine is generally regression analysis, which is, in fact, a fairly simple yet elaborate statistical technique that people can figure out in about 15 minutes for someone training on how to do that. And if people don’t understand the software and the methods they’re using, they encounter problems. We have one company that adopted software, and they found out that the software was giving the salespeople who gave discounts, more discounts and the salespeople who didn’t get discounts, fewer discounts. And, you know, it was at one company, we work with a lot of guys that do this stuff, man, that one company and they were telling me how great their pricing was, and with this new software, and you know, a big-name software company, and there were about 50 people in the room. And I asked the guy, okay, so what’s your R square? Now, if you don’t know what the R square is, and you’re using the software, shame on you, R square is how well the plot describes the data. And this R square, it was point two six, which said that it was a random plot. And I laughed at the guys and I said, ‘Come on, guys, you’re going to get better.’ And as a point, this particular division, they’re part of 100 and 40 billion-dollar corporations. This particular division had 4% of the revenue and 20% of the profitability. So, you can’t, you know, criticize them. But they didn’t understand the tools that they were using, you need to understand the tools, especially in today’s world, you know, how you have to change those tools to accommodate the new world.
Mark Stiving
I got to say, when you told the story about giving bigger discounts to the salespeople who give bigger discounts, just instantly, it’s like, ‘Oh, yeah, that’s obvious, isn’t it?’ Right? And to our listeners, if it’s not obvious, essentially, imagine that we’re using price as the dependent variable, we’re looking at, in general, does China or does the US get a better price, so China usually gets a better price. So, when it’s time to quote, we’re going to give China a better price than we give the US. Now replace China and the US with salespeople. And what we just did was say we’re going to give the worst salespeople more discount authority. Nice!
Reed Holden
We had another case, if you’re going to use the software, rule number one is plot the data, always plot your data. And we have one case that our guys had gotten and then the regression analysis knew the intercept, the slope, and all that stuff. And you know, my rule, so I asked him to plot the data. And they said, No, so I plotted the data. And we found out that there was an exponential relationship between the input variable and the ability to charge money that says, you do an awful lot more on the input variable, which this company did. And their growth last quarter was 50% because they just, they just figured out what the strategic driver was. And, you know, the opportunities there. So yeah, understand your analytics. Absolutely.
Mark Stiving
Now, my biggest problem with the whole software analytics side is that I think people rely on the data too much. And they forget to think about what does value to the customer actually mean?
Reed Holden
Yeah. And, you know, you got to recognize it’s possible to use analytics to draw some interpretation of what that value might be. But that becomes a surrogate of the value. And it’s a very imprecise surrogate. We just did a technical article for the book that was written in honor of Dan Neymar. And, you know, we looked at all the stuff that was going on, and, you know, did all the academic research associated with it, and most, you know, to understand the value, you have to go to your customer, and have a discussion with them to find out other usual stuff. And if you don’t do that, it’s a surrogate of value.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Okay. Here’s what we really wanted to talk about today. Now, I’d sent you an email that said, I don’t want to talk about COVID. I’m sick of talking about COVID. And you’re like, ‘Yeah, but you know, the world’s really changing because of COVID.’ And so, what do you think is changing that we’re not going to get back?
Reed Holden
Well, I mean, there are some marks that are fundamentally changing. You know you look at what happened. There was a Wall Street Journal today that the airlines are beginning to recognize that their models aren’t working. And you know, Bob Krause, who was the leader of all that pricing, his son came on and said, ‘You got to change your models.’ And you got to recognize that the demand structure of that particular market has changed. The demand structure of restaurants, of movies, of the automobile industry, of many industries is changing dramatically. And you have to understand how that demand structure is changing. And as a pricing person, you have to prepare your leadership team for not doing the stuff they did six months ago, but changing how they think about using price to accomplish whatever their objectives are.
Mark Stiving
And so, is it just demand? And I mean, just make that sound? Let’s talk about airlines for a second, right? Yeah, I could see two years from now, five years from now, the world going back to the way it was, in that I’m going to get on an airplane and I’m going to go travel once a week, or well, actually, I’m not going to do that anymore. But I can see people doing that again.
Reed Holden
Well, you got to be careful about that, you know, the trick is to recognize that may happen, but it’s not going to happen for a couple of years. So, what are you going to do in the meantime? And you know, we’ve seen a number of companies that are saying, okay, we are going to do anything, we’re going to wait till we get back to normal. And they recognize it. Okay, it’s been eight months. And we’re not going back to normal. So, what are we going to do now? Unless, you know, you have to start executing online. And, you know, what we’ve done is we’ve changed the way we train, to train people online, using video education, using all the tools that are needed. And that, in the companies that delayed lost that six months of business development opportunity. You look at the companies like Google and the high-tech companies, they’re recognizing Google is offering their people to work at home, as long as they’re willing to take a 10% reduction in salary. I mean, what are you going to do, I’m going to work at home, because it’s going to save me 10% of my salary, to be able to move to Reno, rather than having to work in San Francisco. And, you know, you talk to companies and the companies have fundamentally changed the way they communicate with their people, and especially how they pursue their customers.
Mark Stiving
Okay, so I could see the working at home things sticking around. I could certainly see ecommerce, the growth of Amazon, in fact, I’m buying things online now. I can’t imagine me going back to stores, you know, even when they open?
Reed Holden
Yeah, and you know, you pick up any retail book, and the first chapter is, say location, location, location. And, you know, the whole retailing industry is out the window right now. Yeah, I mean, they should have seen that coming 20 years ago, when Amazon started making the push. And instead, they demanded, they pay the price now.
Mark Stiving
So now we might be playing around with a topic that I always find confusing in my mind. So, let me ask you the flat out the question, and then I’ll bring it back to what we‘ve been talking about. And that is, what’s the difference in your mind between a pricing model and a business model?
Reed Holden
None.
Mark Stiving
Hmm. Very interesting. Very interesting. When you think about these changes, we’ll talk about your business and my business is almost identical in that respect, right? We don’t stand in front of rooms anymore. We don’t go to teach people in-person anymore. We do online training, we do Zoom training, whatever the heck it is, and I respect and that’s a business model change. But at the same time, you have to understand how do people value the product when we’re back to what are they willing to pay? How do they get value from the product? Yeah. And so, is that exactly what you were thinking? Are you going to add more colors than I can?
Reed Holden
Always add more color, that’s where you want me to. You’re dealing at a couple of levels. The method of delivering our respective products has changed dramatically. In March, I was supposed to go to a client and spend a couple of days interviewing people and, you know, coaching them, and I realized what was going on, I changed the model without doing the work online, which saves me a huge amount of time in wear and tear on this aging body. And so, given that, you need to adjust your prices to reflect that change in your model. But at the same time, you have to accommodate the changes in the customer’s needs. And you know, I mentioned a while ago that we moved on my training. And the expectation from the customer was, well, you know, your costs are going to be low, they really aren’t. Because we have to use monitoring services, we have to have event managers where we never had to worry about event managers anymore. And our cost went up. So, we raise prices to these guys. You know, we had one case where a company raises prices 100%. Why did they raise prices 100%? Because they realized that he had a more valuable product and that a lot of their competitors were up at that new level. So, they raised their prices 100%. You know, did the customers complain about it? Sure. Did they pay it? You bet it.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. And I’m not a huge fan of using cost to say, ‘Here’s why I‘m raising prices.’ I’m a huge fan of using it to justify, right? I want to tell you why I raise my prices.
Reed Holden
Right. So yeah, I remember I had a discussion with an editor of Fortune magazine a number of years ago. He made the comment that you shouldn’t raise prices, because your costs are going up. And I tried to get him to understand what you just said, Mark, that is, if you’re going to raise prices your cost is a justification for that. And too many guys are raising prices to say we’re raising prices because that value is high. Well, that’s just going to alienate customers. You raise prices, because we change the product, provide better services to you. There’s a cost to that. And customers understand that. And it makes them accept that price change a lot faster.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, and I always ask people who do that, if your costs go down, you’re lowering your price?
Reed Holden
Right. You live by the sword, die by the sword.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, and that’s super painful.
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Mark Stiving
Okay, so you said that you are trying to retire. What’s life like now? How much do you actually work now?
Reed Holden
I tried to be 50%. I’m about 50%. It works. Being remote has actually helped me. As you know, we have a place up in the North Woods of Maine that we actually get a video up to and I do all up to me. I will head up there and do business and I get to go out and cut wood and mold fields and stuff like that.
Mark Stiving
Are you up there now having the leaves change colors yet?
Reed Holden
I am not updated. Two questions, I have not been updated now. The leaves have where we are, which is up around Mount Washington, the leaves are actually coming down. There are a bunch of trees that haven’t changed and a bunch of trees that have already dropped their leaves.
Mark Stiving
That’s the reason people go to Maine. I’ve never been to Maine, but I was going to go just to see the trees change colors.
Reed Holden
Yeah, it’s, you know, October, early October, it is. It’s gorgeous up there. Yeah.
Mark Stiving
Nice. Okay, so back to COVID. Anything else changing that you think that isn’t going to come back. So, demand structures, I’m complete with you. I think that makes sense. At least, that’s called the medium term.
Reed Holden
Yeah, I mean, the disruption of supply chains that occurred in the first three or four months of the pandemic has caused a lot of companies to change how they view their vendors, and the right ones that understand the importance of supply chain are open to more strategic discussions with the right vendors. One of the things I do a lot of is coaching, pursuit teams, high-level pursuit teams, and, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world I’ve been trying to wrestle these guys to the ground and the first thing we did was, you know, stop for one meeting. We’re professional, and the companies come back and they want to have a strategic discussion. Then, we’re setting up the team to be able to do that remotely and coaching them how to do that. Now is a great time to work with salespeople to execute price better, make them not prone to listen to procurement people who are all asking for discounts right now, understand the value that you provide, enhance that value, and move beyond procurement people to have better discussions with senior executives and your clients so that you can form a true strategic partnership that is where you trust each other, you charge them fair prices. And that, by the way, is a sustainable relationship strategy.
Mark Stiving
Okay, I love what you just said. But I also like it when I get confused about how I would handle something. And so, let’s assume that I can form a really strong strategic relationship. What that essentially just said, was, you as my client now have a higher willingness to pay for my product. And so that almost implies that I should be raising prices as I get more strategic with you
Reed Holden
The word I used was fair.
Mark Stiving
I heard that.
Reed Holden
Yeah. This is a common problem. If you look at the way most industries work, they take the biggest customers, they charge them the lowest prices and they call it strategic, that is, by definition, not strategic. And what they do is they have loyal customers, where they keep raising their prices, too. And they wonder when those loyal customers find when they get acquired when they plan to get smacked and check the competition, they find out that they’ve been hosing them for the past 20 years, and they leave drastically. That’s not a strategic relationship. Strategic relationship is, ‘Listen, I’ve got a cost structure, I need to make some money on.’ The accounting guys have figured out the kind of guys has a philosophy; they call the 20 to 25 rule. And that comes out of Bob Kaplan’s work on activity-based costing. And the 20 to 25-year-old says that if you look at things properly, 20% of your customers give you 225% of your profitability. And chances are, those are not your big customers, the big customers bring down your profitability. So, a strategic relationship is one where you have, you take care of each other mutually, and that means you’re able to get a fair price for your products. And you know, because when people haven’t figured a lot of that stuff out yet, and that’s why it’s a great time now to start doing that.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. So, I love that. But I always teach and maybe I’ve been wrong for my whole career. I always teach, I want to charge my customers what they are willing to pay.
Reed Holden
The problem… that’s why I wrote two books.
Mark Stiving
See, I learned somebody…
Reed Holden
Yeah, but that’s the point. We wrote that the first book was published in ’93. And we did a couple of following ones, or the three or four follow ones. And that’s what that book says. But you can’t, willingness to pay is a problem because it’s an issue of what they call framing. Framing is how people think about their relationship. Relationship, customers want to trust you, and they’re going to trust that you take care of them. If they find out that you’ve been hosing them, you’re going to lose them as customers. The banks did that with fees, the airlines did that with their fees. So, what you need to do is you need to be fair in your prices with them. And that’s what guys like JetBlue and Southwest Airlines do. So, a strategic you know, you can charge them what they’re willing to pay but you’ve got to recognize that that willingness to pay is a changing number, its people become smarter. And over time people get smarter. And anytime you rely on having dumb customers, you’re going to get in trouble with it. You have to assume your customers are smart, and they’re going to know what your pricing is to other people. You know, you do a pricing plot and you see a customer that is buying a million bucks worth of stuff. They’re paying 50 cents a pound and another customer that’s buying 1000 pounds of good stuff, a bunch of stuff. They’re paying 10 cents a phone, customer in the information age customers find out about that. It’s not an issue of charging willingness to pay. It’s an issue of recognizing that you may have a better understanding of what is fear than the customer does. And the rule is that if you have a loyal customer, you’ve got to take care of them. Not only with your service but also with your pricing.
Mark Stiving
Okay, I’m having a great time with this conversation. One of the things I always teach actually is price segmentation, charging different customers different prices based on willingness to pay. But never ever use loyalty as that segmenting variable, right? We do not want to charge our loyal customers higher prices because, by definition, they’d be willing to pay us more. But that’s not, you know, the lifetime value of a customer says, ‘Look that stupid don’t do that.’
Reed Holden
Yeah. So, what you’re talking about is two things, as usual, the issue of loyalty, and segmentation. So, let’s talk about loyalty first, you’re absolutely right in what you say about loyalty. You don’t segment based on loyalty. But within a particular segment, you’ve got to understand who your loyal customers are because you have to treat them differently. Just like you have to understand how your price buys are different value buys are different and how your poker plays a difference. So that’s the first thing. The second thing, the whole issue of segmentation has been turned on its head, because companies are beginning to recognize that the more we segment, the more we’re aggregating dissimilar behaviors. We had a client in the telecommunications industry, and they had 5000 segments, and you know, my initial reaction was, ‘Sorry, it’s not going to work, we remove the number of segments.’ And what we realized is we couldn’t do that. I mean, they truly had 500 different groups of customers based on geography, based on geo-demographic information, based on behavior, based on the package that we got. So, what we had to do is we had to use a pretty sophisticated modeling method to take a group of 5 million customers. So, take a group of 20,000 customers, you know, who lived in the East Arch Coast, and had a multi-unit package with very high-speed internet. And they had to understand if we decided to charge more for that high-speed internet, how are they going to behave? And you don’t do that by changing the price to 20,000. You do that by changing your price to 200. See how they behave and then inform what you need to do. It’s called Cohort analysis. We call it a Cohort analysis; the modeling technique is Stochastic modeling.
Mark Stiving
Yep. I agree completely with everything you just said. That was pretty awesome. And in the world of subscriptions, they’re doing a lot of Cohort analysis, which is nice. I’m guessing that we’re probably over time because I’m having so much fun with this conversation. But let me wrap it up with one last question and feel free to talk for hours. So, what’s the one piece of pricing advice you would give our listeners that you think would have a big impact on their business?
Reed Holden
Going to say to customers, and how they use your stuff. I mean, if I look at the biggest mistake companies make today, is, they don’t understand the customers, they don’t understand how they use this stuff. And you know, people kind of react, ‘Oh we do research that tells you that.’ Now, the research doesn’t tell you that, because, you know, we did work a few years ago, in, you know, digital pathology. And they had at least two fields of research. I mean, I was serious about that. And that research missed a very important driver of value that we’re able to discover in two phone calls with customers that identify a source of value, just because the stuff is a source of value they reach, just search it and the customers agreed with it. And we found that it really wasn’t a good source of value compared to the other stuff. You know, know thy customer. It’s the best advice, if you don’t know your customers, it has to be rule number one, know your customers. Rule number two, if you don’t know your customers, go back to rule number one.
Mark Stiving
Go talk to them. One of my favorite things to do when I started an engagement with anybody is to ask them, ‘What are those value drivers?’ ‘What are those most important things?’ And then go out and talk to a half dozen customers and tell them what their customers just told them? Right? Not the same thing?
Reed Holden
Now, we find that there’s about a 50% overlap. We actually did a… I mentioned the article we did. At the end of this if people want to reach out to me and send them a copy of the article. We can also send them the executive copy of the article, which leaves all the boring stuff out of it. But yeah, I mean, it’s not hard to do it. It’s very insightful. And if you don’t, you’re destined to fail.
Mark Stiving
All right, Reed, fabulous conversation again. Thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Reed Holden
I respond to LinkedIn. The best absolute best way to reach me is my email address, holden@holdenadvisors.com.
Mark Stiving
Advisors, I like the way you say that so it has an O. All right, thanks, Reed. Episode 97 is now finished. Would you please leave us a review? These are very valuable to us. They help other people find our podcast. We got one from T_S_S says, “Pricing Perfection”
A great podcast for people just starting out in Pricing through to seasoned professionals – I learn something new every time.
Thank you, T_S_S. Don’t forget to join our free community at championsofvalue.com. You’ll find that at community.championsofvalue. com. That’s where I post all of my free content, memes, blogs, videos, podcasts. And as always, if you have any questions or comments about the podcast or about pricing in general, feel free to email me mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact!
Tags: Accelerate Your Subscription Business, ask a pricing expert, pricing metrics, pricing strategy
