Brian Doyle is the President at Holden Advisors. In his role, Brian improves his client’s revenue and profitability by building cross-functional, strategic relationships. He then leads his team to deliver results and drive positive change across client organizations. Under Brian’s leadership, his clients and business units have earned $2B, doubled their market share, and reduced commercial expenses by 20%.
In this episode, Brian shares about understanding and being able to articulate your value.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Learn how to play out the risk for your clients, letting them discover the losses they would most probably incur and letting them find out their own solutions
- Find out how to turn a sales pitch into a conversation of value instead
- Learn how to start the conversation not with a tone of selling but of adding value
“In the vast majority of the time, it’s about your value. It’s about what you’re doing for your customers. And when you get that in your brain, that’s when you can price appropriately.”
– Brian Doyle
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Topics Covered:
01:18 – How his Pricing career started
02:45 – Thoughts on him taking the present role with another guy’s name on the door
03:42 – The important things that come to mind when talking about value in the C-suite
05:13 – Justifying competing priorities
06:34 – How to turn the conversation into ‘working together’ rather than ‘selling’
07:43 – How to add value the moment you start the conversation
09:02 – How to turn a sales pitch into a conversation
11:14 – Why do C-suite often is not immersed in the details of capturing value
15:04 – How to let customers calculate their value and own their solution
17:50 – The negative connotation of ROI calculator
18:49 – The need for a conversation between two sides to figure out the value they give and get from each other
20:24 – How do conversations go when you are talking to an executive about a product that is along the line of risk
21:42 – How to plat out risk in the B2B space
23:19 – How to overcome the ‘procurement buzzsaw’
25:45 – How to bring down the scale of keeping pricing and value-aligned
26:55 – His pricing advice that can have a big impact on one’s business
Key Takeaways:
“When it feels more like a partnership, ’Hey, I can totally help you guys do what you want to do, and help you make more money at it or help you serve your customers better so that they make more money on it or both.’ That’s when the pieces come together.” – Brian Doyle
“When you think of value in C-suite, it’s three things – increasing revenue, reducing cost, and, or minimizing risk. And what I found in my experience is that all C-suites care about one or more of those things. And the challenge that we often have is that we sell into middle managers, we sell too low in the organization.” – Brian Doyle
“The thing that keeps everything aligned and doesn’t feel like you have competing priorities is that if you’re really trying to do the best thing for the C-suite, which in turn is the best thing to help them serve their customers, then everything aligns.” – Brian Doyle
“Probably ten years ago, we all learned to ask this wonderful question, ‘Hey, what keeps you up at night?’ I would say, in this age of so much more information. It’s not really a question. It’s more of a statement, which is, ‘This is what should be keeping you up at night.’” – Brian Doyle
“When we are walking into a customer and doing the homework, we are thinking about the value that they provide, and whether or not they’re getting paid for the value that they provide.” – Brian Doyle
“More times than not, clients of ours are stuck in the feature and benefit side of things. And they don’t spend enough time thinking about the impact and the value. When I walk in, I am talking about the impact and the value that they provide to the market, where I see the market going and where I see the opportunity for them to get paid for that value that they provide.” – Brian Doyle
“When you’re talking about value, it’s not necessarily just the product, it might be the service, it might be the support.” – Brian Doyle
“When you talk about revenue, that Math and cost is the same sort of way, that Math is sometimes a little bit easier. But when it comes to risk, you have to think through it with the client like, how would this work?” – Brian Doyle
Resources / People Mentioned:
- Ed Kless
- Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed Holden
- Prospect Theory by Daniel Kahneman
Connect with Brian Doyle:
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Brian Doyle
In the vast majority of the time, it’s about your value. It’s about what you’re doing for your customers. And when you get that in your brain, that’s when you can price appropriately.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the high-level relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Today, our guest is Brian Doyle. And here are three things you want to know about Brian before we start. He was VP of sales; then he was a VP of Marketing. And then he went into consulting. That was all one thing. He is the brand-new president of Holden Advisors. And notice his last name doesn’t start with Holden. And he flew C17 for the Air Force. Welcome, Brian.
Brian Doyle
Thanks, Mark. Happy to be here.
Mark Stiving
I’m so jealous of the C17 thing. I got my pilot’s license, I didn’t know three years ago or something like that, I fly little planes. But that sounds so fun.
Brian Doyle
Yeah, it was awesome. It was a great experience for sure.
Mark Stiving
I’ll bet. So how did you get into pricing?
Brian Doyle
Well, Mark, it was a bit of a winding road. Really, it is an outcome of being on both sides of the negotiation table. So, as you said, used to be a sales leader, used to be a marketing leader. And so, I have seen it from the selling side of things, seeing how prices work out, seeing how it’s easy to sell if I understand the price, and the value really hard if I don’t. And then I’ve seen it on the other side of the equation, too, how do we come up with the price? How do we help our clients figure out the right price for the market? And so those two things have sort of come together for me at Holden Advisors because one of the things we do is connect the dots between pricing and the actual execution of that pricing through a sales team.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I have to say one of my early jobs, I was in sales as well. And being in sales really helps you understand pricing. And then I was on the other side where we were trying to buy really expensive stuff. And trying to work with my own procurement people to get us to buy that. Oh my God, what a nightmare. So, it is interesting.
Brian Doyle
Yeah, it’s so nice to be able to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. And sometimes, it’s putting yourself in your customer’s shoes, but sometimes it’s putting yourself in the shoes of the guy down the hall.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, absolutely. Well, okay, speaking of the guy down the hall, before we jump too much into pricing, I do have to ask what’s it like taking over for someone whose name is on the door?
Brian Doyle
Well, Mark, it’s funny because when the Holden’s asked me to step into the present role, that was the first thing on my mind. And I said, you know, this is an amazing honor for me. And I said, ‘Don’t take it lightly, because I recognize your guy’s names is on the door.’ And so that’s not an easy decision. The nice thing is that the Holden’s are still around, two people that I appreciate working with, two people who continue to coach and offer perspective. So, I didn’t have to start cold turkey, so to speak, it’s going to be a nice transition.
Mark Stiving
Good. So, it didn’t just throw you into the deep end and say, here, go swim.
Brian Doyle
That’s right.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, very, very nice. So, we agreed that we were to talk about value in the C-suite today. And I’m hoping that you’re going to give us a lot of insight. First off, let’s just open it up wide open. When you think about value in the C-suite, what types of things are you thinking about? What’s going through your mind?
Brian Doyle
So, for me Mark, it’s three things, it’s increasing revenue, reducing cost, and, or minimizing risk. And what I found in my experience is that all C-suites care about one or more of those things. And the challenge that we often have is that we sell into middle managers, we sell too low in the organization. And when you create value for middle managers and the things that middle managers care about, oftentimes, it doesn’t make a difference.
So, you know, I work for a company previously, where we used to do a lot of training for free, and the middle managers loved it. And all this is the greatest thing ever. you’ve totally taken this off my plate. You guys are awesome. But I did the math, and we didn’t necessarily get more business from those people. And it’s because the middle managers weren’t the decision-makers. But if you go back to, you know, revenue, cost and risk. In my experience, every C-suite cares about that. And it gets you up to the decision makers and it gets you to having the right sort of conversation.
Mark Stiving
Well, this is actually really interesting because I can think of this in two very different ways. One way is you’re out trying to find your own clients. You’re trying to help your own customers; you want to teach them how to sell to the C-suite. But on the other hand, you also, your firm probably sells to the C-suites. Would that be a true statement?
Brian Doyle
Yeah, it is. And it’s, you know, the thing that keeps everything aligned and doesn’t feel like you have competing priorities is that if you’re really trying to do the best thing for the C-suite, which in turn is the best thing to help them serve their customers, then everything aligns. If you’re trying to sell them something that they don’t really need, or something that you know, you have to talk them into; then there’s that disconnect, that becomes pretty obvious. You know, when you’re selling to folks that it just feels like selling. But when it feels more like partnership, hey, I can totally help you guys do what you want to do, and help you make more money at it or help you serve your customers better so that they make more money on it or both. That’s when the pieces come together.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. So, let’s talk about the look, let’s choose one of the three and we’ll do revenue because it’s the easiest one of the three by far and probably both of our businesses focus on that. And many of our customers do. You can’t walk into an executive and say, ‘Hey, I’m here to increase your revenue,’ because everybody in their brother would walk in and say those exact words, right? How do you find the next level down? What’s going to resonate with them? When it comes to saying, ‘hey, I want to increase your revenue’?
Brian Doyle
Well, oftentimes, Mark, it starts with whatever their goals are. And just with a little bit of homework and reading an annual report or reading the President’s letter at the front of that annual report, maybe reading some interviews, you’ll see what those senior leaders care about. And so, you start the conversation with, ‘Hey, I know you’re interested in x. Tell me why.’ I think I could probably help with that, let’s start a conversation around this. And it’s less selling. And it’s more about, ‘Hey, this is how the future can be so much better if we work together.’ And that starts a conversation.
Mark Stiving
So if I were reading an annual report or writings, you know, the executives letter, the chairman’s love letter, whatever it is, I might see things like, our goal this year is to increase ASP, our goal this year is to win new logos, right, increase the number of new customers, we have to penetrate new markets. And each one of those would say to us, oh, no, that’s the issue that we can talk about, assuming that we can help.
Brian Doyle
Yeah, I think that’s fair. I think doing a little bit of homework with regard to the industry matters a ton too. So, thinking about, you know, so Mark, as a sales guy, and I was a sales guy, you know, probably ten years ago, we all learned to ask this wonderful question, ‘hey, what keeps you up at night?’ And that was the thing that was going to open up, like, you know, that the customer was just going to lay out their entire plans for you. And you’re going to say, I can solve these plans? I would say, in this age of so much more information. It’s not really a question. It’s more of a statement, which is, this is what should be keeping you up at night.
And I think some of its, you know, learning from the company, like we were just talking about, I think some of it is doing your own homework, and saying, this is where I see your market headed. And I see this is an issue for you. And now you’re adding value, just you know, from the moment you start talking instead of let me tell you about my product.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Okay, so I never treat these as a sales pitch. And I don’t really think that this is going to be a sales pitch for you either. But I really want to hear from you. How do you say that to your potential customers? How do you walk into an executive and say, here are the things I can do for you?
Brian Doyle
Yeah. So, for instance, we’ve got clients that sell into the fortune 500. That’s typically for us; it’s the B2B space. Typically, they are very large customers selling into very large customers. And when we are walking into a customer and doing the homework, we are thinking about the value that they provide, and whether or not they’re getting paid for the value that they provide. More times than not, those customers of ours, clients of ours are stuck sort of in the feature and benefit side of things. And they don’t spend enough time thinking about the impact and the value.
And so when I’m walking in, I am talking about the impact and the value that they provide to the market, where I see the market going and where I see the opportunity for them to get paid for that value that they provide, and so what I’m doing is offering specific examples of that value that I see from my vantage point. And Mark, I would say, you know, far more often than not, what I get is, huh? Yeah, that’s kind of interesting. You know, we thought about that, or you know what, we haven’t spent enough time on that? Why don’t you tell me more? And then it turns into more of a conversation than a sales pitch.
Mark Stiving
Okay, so I found what you said fascinating and confusing at the same time, fascinating in the sense that I work a ton with product managers and product marketers and people who truly should understand the value of their products and they rarely do. And in my mind, I can’t imagine the executives, knowing the details, knowing the data of how much value that we’re truly generating. But the other side of that, in my mind says, I think most executives believe we generate a lot more value than we capture. But they don’t know how to go about capturing it, or they don’t make it a priority. What do you think of that perspective?
Brian Doyle
I think it’s fair, I think that the C-suite often is not immersed in the details. And likewise, I think that your average product marketer probably does, you know, works on their own product and works on for instance, if they’re engineers, they’re like, ‘Oh, sweet, I’m going to put another bell or another whistle on this thing.’ And it’s going to be awesome. But not thinking about how the customer is going to use it, how they’re going to benefit from it, that sort of thing.
And so, you know, sometimes it is doing the math and trying to quantify for them, this is probably not the first conversation. But as somebody is a little bit more interested, you get in and you start thinking about, ‘hey, let’s quantify exactly what you do. How are you saving? We’re talking about revenue, you know, how are you growing your customers’ business? You know, what are you enabling them to do with your product or service? How does it make their life easier? Those sorts of things. And then you’re doing some math around it.
And what we find is that, and this is probably the next step that most folks don’t go is when you’re talking about value, it’s not necessarily just the product, it might be the service, it might be the support, it might be, I’m working with somebody now who works with construction sites, and there’s a huge difference between, you can order a part, and I can send it to you versus you can order a suite of all these parts, I will bring them to the construction site, I will operate a trailer for you and hand out the parts exactly when they’re needed. And you don’t have to worry about inventory at all. So that’s not a quote-unquote, product. But it makes a huge difference between them and the other guy who provides the same wiring and the same switches and the same pipes.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think it’s absolutely spot on, right.
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Mark Stiving
I also find that most product people I work with even salespeople don’t have the business acumen to go figure out what’s the dollar value to the customer of the things we just described. Right? Wherever that value is. How do I then go help that customer calculate their own value?
Brian Doyle
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, it’s funny. So, Mark, there’s an example. And in Dr. Reed Holden’s book negotiating with backbone, and it’s about selling dirt
Mark Stiving
My favorite example, by the way, I love. Okay, go ahead, tell it, please.
Brian Doyle
Okay, so we had a client whose business was to supply dirt, they put it into the dump trucks, and the dump trucks drove to construction sites. And that’s, that’s all they did every day, they were third in their market, the leader was the low-price leader as well. So, they said, well, gosh, I can’t cut price any lower than the competition. So how am I going to survive? And they went around, and they talked to their customers, and the customers told them? Well, actually, we spent a lot of time waiting in line, the dump trucks wait in line for this dirt, which I’m paying the driver, I’m paying to operate the truck. And my construction site is now delayed because the dirt’s not there.
And so, what we found was, okay, well, what if you created an express line? That’s, of course, cost more, and the trucks can come through the Express line? So, to answer your question, how do you get people’s heads around this? We ask questions and use the data that comes from the customer. So, give you an example. If the customer says, hey, I’ve spent too much time waiting in line, well, what a poor salesperson says is, oh, I can totally help you with that we have an express line market cost a little bit more, but we could totally do it for you.
Now, what a great salesperson says is wide is waiting in line matter. Oh, I got to pay the driver. I got to pay the truck, my construction site. Oh, how much does all that cost? Oh, could you, if it cost me $90 an hour to run these trucks and pay the drivers. And so, what if I were to cut a half an hour of every trip off? What would that be worth? And the customers do in the Math? They’re going well, Jesus, it’s $9 an hour, I guess it’s 45 bucks an hour? Well, and how many trips Do you take in a day? Oh, gosh, you know, with all the trucks we do 300. All right, well, what’s 300 times 45. And now it’s the customer owning the data. It’s their data; they’re owning the solution; they’re starting to think about this is a great idea that I came up with. Perfect. So, it’s not it’s not selling them. It’s So, helping them come to that conclusion.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. And what I love about what you just described, is it’s different from an ROI calculator, right, as a company, I could have created an ROI calculator to tell the company, here’s how much money you saved by not standing in line. And they probably don’t trust it, they probably don’t believe it. But when we let them, do the math, come up with the ideas. Now it’s real. Now that Yeah,
Brian Doyle
Yeah, exactly. Mark, the world is full of conscientious marketers who have created ROI calculators. And then they get angry because the salespeople never use them. And it’s one of two things. The customer either says, ‘Hey, this is bogus’, or the salesperson gets two or three questions in a row that they can’t answer. And they, they look dumb in front of the customer. And they go, I’m not using this calculator again. So, you’re exactly right,
Mark Stiving
it really has to be done by the salesperson with the customer. In fact, what I often say about this is, look, my salespeople, there’s no way they know the value that any single customer is going to get from my product. And by the way, that customer, there’s no way they know the value that they’re going to get from my product. And so, what we really need is a conversation between the two to figure it out.
Brian Doyle
That’s right.
Mark Stiving
And if our salespeople can’t do that, we’re not going to have those conversations.
Brian Doyle
Yeah, yeah. And you see it, Mark, even more on the risk side. So, when you talk about revenue, that math is in cost is the same sort of way, that math is sometimes a little bit easier. But when it comes to risk, you really have to think it through with the client of like, who, how would this work? If you know, you failed at this, or, you know, an auditor came in and, you know, did something with you, and what could that be worth, and our experience has been that you’re actually better off not quantifying the risk in many circumstances. Because customers go to a dark place very quickly. And they think to themselves, oh my god, if that happened, I’d lose my job, my boss would get in trouble. This would be terrible. And you don’t even have to do the numbers on that part. You just sort of go wow, yeah, so I can solve that for you. Hmm.
Mark Stiving
Okay. So, I’m glad you brought up risk because I find often, we were in a position, a company is in a position to lower risk, right. Think of it as selling insurance. However you look at it. I’m going to sell you something that protects You from being hacked. All I just did was sell you insurance. Right? Right. It’s a risk thing that we’re capturing. So, what’s the conversation like with an executive with a buyer? Because now I have to make them believe that it’s more likely their house is going to burn down, then it’s going to flood. Right? If I’m going to sell fire insurance?
Brian Doyle
Yeah. Well, if you’re selling fire insurance, you’re probably talking about how many times houses have burned down. And the more real, you can make that and that’s less so like what I’m doing when I’m speaking with my clients more. So, what my clients are doing when they speak to their customers is to is to bring examples. So, we’ve got a client who works in the HR process space. And if you see something in the news, which nowadays is probably at least once a month, and you say, gosh, look at what happened at Chipotle, a, they had an ice raid, and they found out that there was a lot of illegal aliens working here. Or people who were just undocumented, or people just didn’t fill out the forms correctly. And they get fined a, I forget the number of billion dollars. Gosh, we wouldn’t want that to happen to you. And they can, you know, if you are fast food, you are right away thinking that could easily happen to me. Okay. How do I take care of this insurance? This quote-unquote, insurance.
Mark Stiving
Right, right. Yeah, so in that case, it’s less about calculating value, and more about letting the buyer feel the pain imagine the pain?
Brian Doyle
Yeah. And what we found, Mark. So, you know, Daniel Kahneman, you know, Nobel Prize winner, super smart guy. And your audience may know this, it’s called Prospect Theory. And basically, what it is, in a nutshell, is that somebody who feels like they own something, they’re starting to own this solution, because we talked through it with them, they feel the loss of that twice as much as they feel the gain of something else. And so that’s where risk really comes into play. And it’s why the car dealer always starts you with the luxury model. Because you see all the bells and whistles in the VA and how fast you can go. And as they start peeling away those features to get you to a lower price. You feel that quote, unquote, loss twice as much as you would if they started you with the economy model, and said, or I could give you a bigger engine, and if I need a bigger engine, right? So that’s how risk plays out, particularly in the b2b space.
Mark Stiving
Nice. Hey, let’s change topics just slightly, because I’m really curious about another problem that I despise, and I don’t know the best solution to. Okay, so let’s imagine that you’ve gone in and you sold value and a bunch of high-level people have said, I love this thing, this is going to be worth a gazillion dollars to us. Let’s go buy one. And then they handed off to procurement. And now your salespeople are negotiating with a buyer, as opposed to negotiating with the C suite or negotiating with the decision maker, right? How do you keep value at the top of that conversation?
Brian Doyle
So, it is a problem that nearly every B2B company finds on a daily basis. And we spend a ton of time at Holden Advisors advising people on how to overcome what we call the procurement buzzsaw. So, you’re exactly right, Mark. There are a variety of techniques, the one that comes first to mind is what we call give guests. And what this does is, it is guardrails, and thought ahead of time that enables your sellers to negotiate directly with procurement without having to come back into the organization or to their manager and say, ‘Well, how about now can we lower the price and lower the price?’
And the way it works is that, you know, if you’ve offered a high value solution to the company, again, C suite bought into a procurement saying, I don’t care about the value, I just want the lowest price, that’s a common technique everywhere from them yelling at you to walking out of the room to whatever, there are a million techniques, but they’ll basically tell you, they don’t care about the value. And so, what give gets do is you say, hey, that’s fine, I’d be happy to lower the price. And so, here’s what I’ll do, I’ll pull off these one or two pieces of value that we’ve discussed previously. And I can lower the price by doing that.
And there’s you know, there’s a ton of different ways it might be product features. It might be payment terms, it might be shipping, it might be support, whatever it is, I’m going to pull off these pieces of value and I’d be happy to give you that lower price that you’re asking for. And what that does is expose is if procurement is playing a game with you, and more often than not, they are. What we see is procurement will say, Oh, no, wait a minute, I need all the value that you negotiated with the C suite. Oh, okay. So now you’ve just established with me that value matters to you. And it’s not only price. And that has changed the conversation between you got to get to the lowest point, and I’m buying something I really care about. Yeah.
Mark Stiving
No, I think that’s absolutely brilliant. And that’s such a hard such a hard problem. In my world, my solution to that is I’m willing to walk away from any deal. But it just doesn’t matter to me.
Brian Doyle
Yeah, well, that’s exactly right, too, Mark. You’ve got to have a place where you can bring them down the scale of keeping pricing value aligned, you know, to a point. And then basically, you can’t strip any more value, because that’s the most basic thing you have. And if they want to go below that, you say, God bless them, you know, maybe we can do business another time. And you let the competitor take the loss. Because there’s nothing worse than closing a deal. And then, you know, sitting back in your chair and thinking to yourself, wait a minute, I just lost money on that thing. Like what was I? What did I think? It doesn’t feel good anymore.
Mark Stiving
And you can even ask him on the way out the door? Would you like a reference to another provider?
Brian Doyle
I’m not even out the door. Gosh, Mark, I can’t do that for you. But you know, who would be you know, probably somebody you might want to investigate is so and so.
Mark Stiving
Okay, Brian, this has just been so much fun. I got to end with this question, though. What’s one piece of pricing advice that you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Brian Doyle
So, it really comes down, Mark, to understanding and being able to articulate your value. Too often, I see cost-plus, which is leaving money on the table. Too often, I see. Well, the competitors here. So maybe I could do 5% lower than them. Maybe those things are appropriate. But in the vast majority of the time, it’s about your value. It’s about what you’re doing for your customers. And when you get that in your brain, that’s when you can price appropriately.
Mark Stiving
Yep. I got spot-on advice. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Right. Brian, thanks so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Brian Doyle
It’s probably easiest to just go through LinkedIn. I am Brian A. Doyle on LinkedIn or you can search for Brian Doyle at Holden Advisors, and you’ll get to me right there.
Mark Stiving
Perfect. Thank you, Brian. Episode 93. All done. To our listeners, would you please leave us a review? Rhonda Lynn left us one, it said, ‘Brilliant show host and guests.’
“Mark’s show is a must-listen for anyone in professional services that want to know how to create better and capture value. He’s interesting and insightful. It’s well worth your time to invest 30 minutes each week to hear from him about the most recent advancements in pricing. My favorite episode is the one with Ed Kless from Sage.”
Thank you, Rhonda Lynn. Thank you, Ed, for doing that episode with me as well. Don’t forget to join the free community at championsofvalue.com. That’s where we post links to everything I publish that’s free, our memes, our blogs, our videos, our podcasts. You find that at community.championsofvalue.com. If you have any questions or comments about the podcast or pricing in general, feel free to email me at [email protected]. Now, go make an impact!
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