Stuart Dodds is a sought after speaker, pricing and project management expert, and author of Smarter Pricing, Smarter Profit, and Pricing On the Front Line, both published by the American Bar Association.
Stuart was one of the first and longest-serving pricing and legal project management directors in the legal industry, first with Linklaters and most recently with Baker McKenzie.
In this episode, Stuart addresses the key pricing challenges encountered by services, whether within a law firm or a law department. He also shares how he helps professional firms achieve targeted pricing, negotiation, and project management support to produce in an increase in the bottom line.
Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Discover why should a law firm hire a pricing person, the impact that pricing had on a firm’s bottom line, the benefits of having those types of roles in place
- How to go beyond the hourly rate fees for service professional
- Learn the array of ‘in the trenches’ perspective on how service professional firms can price smarter
“[In terms of giving discount] Don’t negotiate at five and zero.”
— Stuart Dodds
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01:34 — Flipping skills: starting in procurement then shifting to pricing: a backstory of how Stuart Dodds started in pricing.
03:00 — Why would a law firm hire a pricing person, the impact pricing has on a firm’s bottom line; “organizations were seeing a benefit from having those types of roles in place”.
04:24 — How to price professional services.
07:46 — The concept of ‘Will I, Which One’: the distinction between ‘is it competitive on price, or is there a competitor for something else?’
09:33 — Identifying “Why is it them [the law firm]? What’s their differentiator? What’s our value add?” And incorporating the fee they charge.
11:37 — Digging deep into hourly billing versus project pricing or solution pricing.
12:24 — Big question as a professional: ‘How certain am I that I know the solution to the problem?’
15:15 — Value-based messaging and the personal relationship with clients: Why changing the nature of the conversation is important.
19:59 — Procurement as a challenge to a customer-provider relationship, types of procurement.
24:55 — Stuart’s pricing advice: “‘[In terms of giving discount] Don’t negotiate at five and zero.”
“There’s a tendency to still go back to the hourly rate, and not explore different ways of delivering better value to clients, and not actually getting better pricing and better profitability.” — Stuart Dodds
“The challenge is that ultimately they’re typically not listening to the (client’s) answers, or they’re not asking the right questions.” — Stuart Dodds
“I think one of the challenges law firms are having at the moment is identifying, ’Why is it them? What’s their differentiator? What’s their value add? Why can’t they be charging more for certain services? And how should they best support delivery of the other, less differentiated services to their client base?’” — Stuart Dodds
People and Resources Mentioned:
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Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created using Temi, an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Stuart Dodds: Do not negotiate at five. We tend to like round numbers, we like things to end in five or zero, we like the 5% 10% and 15% discounts. By doing that, for a law firm, for every 1% additional discount, you’re giving your client or a professional services firm, you’re typically taking about three to 4% of your existing margin. So if you’re going from 5% to 10%, you’ve just reduced your potential margin by anywhere between 15 and 20%. Just because you wanted a round number.
Mark Stiving: Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing value, and the lucky or maybe the unlucky relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving, today our guest is Stuart Dodds.
Here are three things you want to know about Stuart before we start. He’s the co-founder of Positive Pricing, which is a pricing consulting firm focused on professional services firms. He’s a board member of the Legal Value Network. And something unusual. He lists Coursera courses he’s completed, and they aren’t the types of courses you might have expected. These are a history of rock, philosophy, mythology, a very well rounded person. Let’s see what we can learn from Stuart. Welcome, Stuart.
Stuart Dodds: Hello, Mark. And thank you for that nice introduction. And I’ll see if I’m well rounded by the end of the seminar.
Mark Stiving: I’m sure you’re gonna do great. So how did you get into pricing?
Stuart Dodds: By luck, actually, my background was always in management consulting. So business consulting, I was primarily a supply chain consultant. So I used to look after trucks and sheds and warehouses, not good stuff.
And in the late 90s, purchasing or procurement became quite a key topic. So actually I moved into supply chain strategic pricing, also strategic procurement, procurement, e-procurement that whole area in about 2000. And then became more passionate from the procurement side from the negotiation, how you explain the value, how you extract value.
And because of my role in procurement, I actually got headhunted for a major law firm in the UK to be their Global Head of Pricing, which at that stage is quite unusual. And I knew nothing about pricing. So I had to take my procurement knowledge, my negotiation background, and literally flip it the other way around.
So I did all the things that any novice should do, I joined the professional pricing society I read up on all the books that are there and try to literally subsume myself into the pricing world and relate that back to what I knew, which was the procurement world. And that’s how the journey started.
Nice. So I really have nice positive thoughts around procurement people. So luckily you left the dark side and came and joined us on the positive side over here. So what was unusual about taking on a job at a legal firm, why would they hire a pricing person? Because don’t they just do hourly billing all the time. And we got that down. It’s easy.
I think that was one of the things that certainly the firm that I joined, which is a very well known magic circle firm, we’re very passionate to try and change. I think they recognized firstly, the impact that pricing had on their bottom line, and had been looking at a way to try and work out what to do.
Stuart Dodds: When I joined. It was 2008. It was actually just before the global financial crisis. So it was other great planning on my part, a very bad planning on my part. But it meant that a lot of doors that would have been shut down immediately open because people were wanting help and support they needed to understand how do they deal with this, actually, ironically, current market situation 2008 and also 2020.
And what they were trying to do is actually changed the way that they engaged with their clients. So they wanted to give greater certainty they wanted to price accordingly and allow the traditional way of doing that was hourly rates and for many professional services that still has a role to play. They were trying to do something different and they needed to have a focal point or a resource or resources to help coordinate and train and educate and cover those client-facing conversations. With the procurement teams with the dark side from somebody who actually understood why the dark side were asking that question.
Mark Stiving: Yeah. I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to call it the ‘dark side’ now. That’s good.
Stuart Dodds: I probably lost all my procurement friends I ever had to say to them if they’re listening, I apologize in advance.
Mark Stiving: Nice, nice. Let’s talk a little bit about pricing professional services. So obviously, law firms or professional services, what else do you think and when you think of professional services?
Stuart Dodds: I mean, for me, I mean, obviously, I came from a consulting background and actually coming from a procurement background or procurement consultancy firm laterally. We used a lot of the pricing approaches that are second nature outside of professional services. So we use things to do with your value, or risk-sharing mechanisms. We had blended rates, we had different entry levels or differentiated pricing depending on the type of work and the value of the work.
Stuart Dodds: And I thought I was coming into play I’ve joined legal hour, an industry that was more used to doing that because I’d seen it in my consulting world. Obviously, we had fixed fees with cap fees, all these types of things. Having spoken to a number of accountancy firms and engineering firms and actuarial firms and advertising firms, there’s a tendency to still to go back to that hourly rate, and not explore different ways of delivering better value to their clients.
Stuart Dodds: And not actually getting better pricing and better profitability for them as an organization. It’s still relatively naive or immature, in many sectors. And actually, ironically, having joined the legal sector from consulting.
Stuart Dodds: The legal sector of all of them, has actually probably embraced the concept of having pricing professionals much more active within their own organizations. I don’t mean consulting to other organizations, but within their own firms, because they see the value of it.
Stuart Dodds: So you know, when I joined the pricing community in 2008, there were two people in law firms at that role that I was doing. There are now over 400.
So it’s actually one of the fastest-growing professional areas within the legal services, when I’ve seen that replicated accountancy firms are beginning to see that replicated in other professional service firms as well.
Mark Stiving: And why do you think it works? Why do you think it takes off in legal more so than, say, accounting firms?
Stuart Dodds: I think partly it’s the fact that it’s maybe had a slightly longer heritage in legal I mean, 2008 and it was not that long ago in real terms.
But I think the fact that those organizations were seeing a benefit from having those types of rules in place, and having a relatively small group as an accountant around us are a small group of individuals could see the value of the role has been delivered and we’re hearing about it in you know, either podcasts or magazine articles wherever that would be.
I think a lot of people in certainly in the accountancy profession have been doing this. Obviously, Ron Baker came from the accountancy profession, you know, he’s got great perspectives. I think certainly some of the organizations themselves have been a little bit reluctant to have somebody who’s maybe not a fee earner, helping provide that professional support and that advice that guidance and coaching, because they think that they can do it. So I think there’s a number of different elements and culture is actually often one, whether it be law firms or not actually, many law firms have tried having a pricing person, but if they’re not letting that person have a role to play in the conversations, particularly the clients, the value of the role is diminished significantly.
Mark Stiving: Yeah, absolutely. So as I was thinking about the answer to the question that I asked a few things came to mind.
Mark Stiving: The first thing that comes to mind is lawyers probably deliver a lot more value than they actually have paid for. Where I’m not 100% sure that’s true with accountants. And I say that in the following sense.
Mark Stiving: I often teach a concept of ‘Will I in Which one’, meaning how much competition is there. And if I’m trying to get my books done, I can go to almost any accountant or bookkeeper and get my books done. Because it’s a pretty solid well-known road, where if I’ve got a legal problem, it’s almost different every time. So it isn’t the same thing unless I’m just going to do a deed or a real estate transaction or something like that. And so I could see how lawyers have less competition, which means that people would probably be willing to pay more, which means that they’re leaving more money on the table when they do hourly billing. Did that resonate with you at all?
Stuart Dodds: It did but not everything. I think partly, you know if I was to speak to lawyers, I did this morning in the UK have a chat with a well-known firm.
One of the challenges they have is they actually feel the opposite. They feel that actually many of the services that they’re providing are highly competitive. Now, there’s a distinction here between is it competitive on price, there’s a competitor for something else. That actually the default for a lawyer typically is its price related to discount, which is actually the thing we try and educate more generally away from.
Stuart Dodds: But I also think that there are certain things that a lawyer does as indeed there are certain things that an accountant or another professional service provider does, that are very, very high end. It’s the bet the company type things. It’s a reputational type of things. But there’s a lot of stuff there that is also the run the business type stuff and the commodity type stuff. And no lawyer certainly likes to hear the word commodity. But if there are three or four people very much like your example of bookkeeping, if there are three or four people who can do it, the amount of a similar level, it’s a commodity.
Stuart Dodds: So I think one of the challenges of law firms are having at the moment is identifying ‘Why is it them?’ What’s their differentiator? What’s our value add? Why can they be charging more for certain services? And how should they best support delivery of the other, less differentiated services to their client base in a way that makes sense for them?
Stuart Dodds: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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Mark Stiving: So let’s talk about going to the car shop for a second. This whole thing of hourly pricing versus project pricing or solution pricing struck home for me one day when I was in a car shop and I saw a sign that said you could replace your battery for $149 or something like that. And it suddenly hit me. You know, what they don’t say is you can buy a battery and pay us an hourly rate to replace your battery. It was here’s 100% nine bucks are going to replace your battery. But on the other hand, if I go in there and I say, you know, my engines making this little tingling sound, can you fix that? They’re not going to give me a flat fee to fix the tingling sound, because they have absolutely no idea what that is. And so it seems to me when I think about this whole hourly versus project, it has a lot to do with how certain am I that I know the solution to the problem?
Stuart Dodds: I think that’s very fair. And actually one of the things that I’ve seen in many conversations that I’ve had with my pairs and with clients as well, when I was in a law firm to that side now, as a lot of it is down to how do I deal with the uncertainty? So how do I actually know that I’ve understood the problem correctly? And often the clients particularly in a legal context, but not solely in a legal context, maybe don’t understand the problems.
Stuart Dodds: And it’s, it’s having that dialogue and that conversation. And one of the key challenges I think, in most professional services is the nature of the people who are successful. There are very strong opinions. They have lots of good examples and they’ve got lots of brainpower. Great stuff. That they’re expediting are using. But what the challenges is that ultimately is that typically not listening to the answers, or they’re not asking the right questions. And one of the things we’ve seen a huge movement to certainly in legal and also in some of the other areas is actually being willing to sit down to the plant saying, you know, I think it’s this option, but I’m not sure to let’s explore this a bit more. And let’s find the pricing mechanism that works in this situation.
Stuart Dodds: So if it’s something that is pretty easy to scope, pretty easy to define, pretty repeatable. Well, that’s one option. But if it’s less obvious, are the ways that we can get rid of that ambiguity. Can we use assumptions more effectively? And lawyers love assumptions, but the problem is lawyers love too many assumptions. They love 15, 20 assumptions, best practice, guess what’s three or four? And they find that very difficult because, you know, that means that they feel they’re taking on a risk, but actually, if you’re engaging with your client properly on a commercial level, you’re building that relationship, you’re demonstrating that trust you’re helping explain and explore and identify what’s the root cause and how can we best support you commercially through that process.
Mark Stiving: Yeah. So when I think about this whole professional services field fascinates me, because it’s feels really hard to do pricing well. And I say that because when I think about on the value side, we could have value conversations and I could start to learn how much value my customer is receiving. But it’s still uncertain, I still don’t really know what their value is.
Mark Stiving: And on the other hand, my willingness to accept, the amount of time and effort it’s going to take me to get him to his solution is also uncertain. there’s just tons of uncertainty in this whole path. So I’ll bet that’s really challenging to get partners in firms to be willing to accept that much uncertainty.
Stuart Dodds: I think it is. I think the other thing that comes back to that is also they are not necessarily commercially minded or business-minded. And I don’t mean that in any derogatory way at all, they’re focusing on the law. And so in the legal context of when they’re talking to a client, they’re talking about the legalities. If what needs to be done? They’re not thinking about how does that help my clients succeed from a business perspective because the client has a business problem, they don’t have a legal problem legal help resolve it, but the businesses the challenge.
Stuart Dodds: So one of the things that I’ve seen work exceptionally well currently is actually changing the nature of the conversation to say, actually, you know, how do we in whatever area of law or whatever type of professional service that we’re doing add value to our clients. And we’re doing that in three typical ways. We’re doing that in a way that adds value to the client organization itself.
Stuart Dodds: So you know, that the Googles or the Bank of America’s or whoever it would be, you know, at that corporate level, and we know that we’re doing the things that you know, people you know, in other industries are doing, so, how can we help improve their revenues? How can we help decrease our costs? How can we mitigate their risks? How can we actually build their brand or reputation How can we improve their cash flow particularly important at the moment?
Stuart Dodds: So we need to think about it from a business perspective saying how does my approach support that gives the partners confidence because now they can say, I understand how I’m helping my client be successful.
Stuart Dodds: And maybe the client doesn’t understand that. But you can engage the client say, Well, does this look right to you? If we did this, does this help you solve that problem? Does that help you move to the next stage, but we’re also helping the client at the individual level. And actually, this is certainly something at the personal professional services area. That’s really important because it’s the relationship.
Stuart Dodds: So how do I help my client or my clients succeed? How do I make them look good? I don’t make them be successful in their organization. And how does the way that I deliver my services differentiate me from everybody else? It could be I write in their language, I provide them lots of support or background, I have a great network that I’ve introduced them to.
Stuart Dodds: And then the third area is actually in how do I offer something that’s better than the competition or these differentiated from the competition that directly addresses the client’s concern? I could have lots of bells and whistles. But if the client doesn’t want the bells and whistles, that really doesn’t matter.
Stuart Dodds: So how can I tailor that for what that client needs and it’s beginning to change the dialogue that way, is where I think we’re seeing the most movement certainly for law firms for other professions. Service firms by engaging directly with the client, listening to the client, and speaking the language of business to the client, not the language of their profession.
Mark Stiving: Yeah, I love Well, first of all, I’m gonna say I love number one. And number three, I think those two are incredible. Number two, let’s talk about it. Since I’m not I’m a little unclear, uncertain. Number two was I want the individuals that I’m interacting with to be more successful. Now, obviously, that’s true, right? Obviously, we want to help them. How do I put value on that?
Stuart Dodds: I think it’s recognizing that first day, people in professional services often underestimate that personal relationship that they have. It’s just how they do business. They like working with people they like and they’ll know the clients they don’t like. But we often undervalue the impact that that has to the individual.
Stuart Dodds: So if that individual is saying, ‘Look, I can conduct training for my team, because half the time can you conduct training for my team?’ So they’re helping that client that individual be successful in their department. It could be around, I need to report to my CEO or my board about what I’m doing. But it could be, I provide you with a monthly report or a weekly report that outlines what we’ve been doing and how it’s adding value to your business, and taking the noise and the pain away.
Stuart Dodds: I’ve even heard an example of one from a partner in a firm that I was working for, who actually used to have their client picked up at their door, every time they visited a certain location, take them back to their office and just let them work in the office. But they took all the noise of the travel on the commute away.
Stuart Dodds: Now, as you say, That’s hard to put a value on a quantifiable value on but it has an emotional value on when that client is looking to choose a firm, they’re going to say, Well, I’m going to go to my normal providers, and there’s going to be a range of providers, maybe they’re $80, up to $150.
Stuart Dodds: But they’re typically going to choose the one that they like to work with the one that helps them and if you’re at the hundred and 50 end of the scale of the 80 end of the scale, they’re going to choose you on that basis. So building that relationship is really quite important because when it comes to that competitive tender by the little things that you’ve done to help them because they like working with you because you make their life easier, means you can probably charge a little bit more than you could normally, or you’re charging a rate that’s fair for the services that you’re providing.
Mark Stiving: Now, you know, what I love about what you just said, is I do a lot of work in subscriptions. And what you just reminded me of, or what that reminded me of was, although I may not have a subscription as a lawyer, what I do have is I have a relationship and ongoing relationship where that person is making decision, after decision, after decision as to which law firm to go to. And as long as I do what subscription companies consider to be customer success, right? I want to make sure my customers are super happy and getting a lot of value, then they’re much more likely to stay with us and that’s just a great example of that even in the non-subscription world.
Stuart Dodds: I think it is that comes back to a point that we’re talking about earlier on. We talked about procurement jokingly is the dark side, but actually, one of the frustrations I think people have had in the professional services is when procurement is brought into the process, rightly or wrongly, it’s being perceived as a challenge that that existing relationship. Because procurement don’t misunderstand the relationship, and actually, that’s not their role. So recognize that completely. But the people who are having the discussions feel that they’re being threatened. And they’re being defensive, and they don’t understand how to engage with this new entity, called procurement to this, well, it’s not so new anymore. But some areas that maybe still is.
Stuart Dodds: And that’s where the unease happens. And that’s where I think people who have got that pricing background and that professional background, can help coach them through those conversations, say, Actually, procurement in this context is also a stakeholder. If we can make their life easier, they’re going to help us understand what’s important to the client at the organizational level. And it’s not going to be a focus on purely give me your cheapest price. It’s going to help me deliver value to my organization, and how can you help me do that, and it may cost more, but as long as it’s a multiple values that I get as a client, I’m probably going to choose you.
Stuart Dodds: So again, it’s recognizing all the different stakeholders that are in this microcosm. Okay, Stuart, we’re gonna have a hard time going down this path because I really don’t like procurement people.
Mark Stiving: So let me let’s not have this conversation, but I want to express a quick opinion if I may. Everything that you said I think makes a ton of sense, where procurement cares a lot about, are we getting value for the company? Are we getting, you know, if I’m buying a product that’s going being built into something, is my supply chain accurate and is it on time and I’m not getting lined down issues and right so these guys have a ton of value in that you take all of that into consideration. And at the very end, they always try to beat you up on price, right? They will come up with every excuse and story and whatever it is to try to say, ‘All your competitors are lower price or something else.’ And that’s the piece of it. That really bothers me. really bothers me. So but all the other stuff I’m with you, they add value in a lot of ways
Stuart Dodds: Just add one thing there because I have maybe come from the procurement side myself, maybe this is where I’m gonna wind my friends back. Who knows. They’re probably three types of procurement, I think that the challenge that many of us have, as we see procurement as a big amorphous, amorphous blob, you know that those who are there to purchase a product, the buyer of service and actually completely agree, their main considerations of what those costs because let’s be honest, they get remunerated on what they said the business.
Stuart Dodds: You know, it’s like you get what you measure. So I think that is one group. And I completely agree with what you’re saying, Mark. And I’ve seen it and I believe been there as well when I was maybe less gray hair.
Stuart Dodds: The second group are those that live with the consequences as the cafe manager, the sourcing manager, is the one who not only has a role to play in guiding the stakeholders within the business to make the decision because bear in mind, procurement doesn’t make the decision, right? They also have to live with the consequence. So they’re going to want to choose somebody who’s robust, who’s good, who’s easy to work with, who provides the value add and allows them to be able to look good in their organization back to one of the ones we’re for, and there’s a third group and actually I was one of the third group, I confess, and that’s the third-party consultant. It is the person who’s brought into the process. And they probably sit in the middle a little bit. The first is to focus on cost and savings. The second is focus on value, at least it should be because they have to be delivering value to their organization or have an ongoing relationship. And the third party hired hand needs to be talking about benefits.
Stuart Dodds: So if the benefit is based on I’ve got a lower price, that’s fine. But it could be I’ve helped deliver additional value to the organization, that’s also fine because again, they typically get remunerated on what they have provided to the business. So as long as we understand who we’re dealing with, from a bigger perspective, it could be as simple as looking at their email signature allows us to tailor our conversation appropriately, but the point you made or well made, but maybe need to be tweaked a little bit depending on that audience.
Mark Stiving: I’m with you. And you know, I feel really horrible about talking about anybody. So you know,
Stuart Dodds: I hear you, I hear you.
Mark Stiving: I just I’ve lived on both sides. I’ve never been procurement. But I’ve been in a company where I had procurement buy multimillion-dollar products for me. And I, I’ve watched that work, and I felt I felt guilty for my vendors.
Stuart Dodds: And let’s be honest, it can work really, really well. And it can also work really, really badly. I think one of the things I’ve certainly witnessed in the last five, six years in the professional services space is an increasing professionalization of people who are involved in procurement and professional services. But that still doesn’t actually mean that we get the right answers. To these, they’re getting better, they’re getting less wrong answers.
Mark Stiving: And the problem is, regardless of how you break up the pie, different people have a small little piece and they’re trying to optimize their little piece and that just may not be the best answer for the whole company always. And that’s not just procurement. That’s anybody.
Mark Stiving: All right, you know, unfortunately, we are almost out of time, but let’s wrap this up with the ultimate question. What’s the one piece of pricing advice you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Stuart Dodds: Don’t negotiate at fives.
Mark Stiving: Don’t negotiate at fives., what does it mean?
Stuart Dodds: So let me just summarize what that means, particularly in professional services who typically have much higher margins than many other industries. Their margins are typically anywhere between 30% and above.
Stuart Dodds: We tend to like round numbers, we like things to end in five or zero, we like the 5% 10%, and 50% discounts. By doing that, for a law firm, for every 1% additional discount, you’re giving your client or a professional services firm, you’re typically taking about 3 to 4% of your existing margin. So if you’re going from 5% to 10%, you’ve just reduced your potential margin by anywhere between 15 and 20%. Just because you wanted a round number, so don’t negotiate at fives and zeros is my top tip in professional services.
Mark Stiving: Nice. I think that’s actually a really good negotiation tip Anyway, I’ve never said it as in don’t negotiate at fives. I always say make small steps.
Stuart Dodds: What comes next? When you do something It gets smaller and smaller and concessions are conditional. Yes. If I give you every time you ask me for something, I give you something, you’re not going to stop and you won’t value it. So if I’m giving you something, if you do this for me, I’ll do something for you. It’s again, making it conditional on that dialogue. And again, it’s these little tweaks and that more commercial view, I think it helps build a relationship because you want your provider who in whichever area to be having the right commercial outlook and having that strength of character to push back if something’s not right for them.
Mark Stiving: Yeah. And if you just give discounts away, it makes it hard for the client to believe that you are being honest in the beginning
Stuart Dodds: Completely. So completely. If you give a 50% discount and I’ve seen it on things like double glazing windows, you have no faith in the original price of the product. That’ll be true and have that confidence that what you’re delivering is adding value to the client. If you can quantify that fantastic. Believe in what you’re offering and that has a value.
Mark Stiving: Excellent, excellent. Stuart, thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Stuart Dodds: I probably just do my email which is Stuart dot Dodds at positive pricing calm or on LinkedIn, and they can see my Coursera courses.
Mark Stiving: Yeah, there we go. And we’ll have some links to that in the show notes as well. Episode 69. All done. Let’s see, what’s my favorite part today? I think I really enjoyed talking about hourly billing versus project billing. I always find that an interesting topic and hard to quantify hard to say when it’s the right time. What was your favorite part? Please let us know in the comments or wherever you download it and listen to this. While you’re at it, would you please give us a five-star review these are extremely valuable to us. Don’t forget we have a free community at community dot champions evaluate calm, and we publish all almost everything that I publish there. Feel free to come to join us, join the conversation there. If you have any questions or comments about the podcast or about pricing in general, feel free to email me, mark@ impactpricing.com. Now go make an impact.