John Moss is the CEO of Flintfox International, a pricing software company with world class IP in the areas of pricing and revenue management. He’s previously worked as the Chief Strategy Officer and also General Manager of MYOB. John is also trained to use explosive and radioactive devices.
In this episode, John talks about the work they do at Flintfox. He explains why pricing models should change in line with the updates constantly happening at present on software. Additionally, Mark and he discuss the complexity of pricing, especially in these days of high inflation.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Discover why pricing models in software businesses should change from time to time;
- Understand the current situation and complexities in pricing, especially in this time of high inflation; and
- Find out how much of a game-changer it will be to have organizations focus more on pricing and not just in cost reduction
“For many organizations, pricing has been off to the side and somebody who’s got a quantitative bent will do that and look into it. I think there’s an increasing need to employ experts in the organization that understand pricing, that understand pricing models, how you create value, and can help you manage through the current period of uncertainty.”
– John Moss
Topics Covered:
01:18 – How John got into pricing
02:37 – Lessons learned as they transitioned from transactional to subscription pricing
04:14 – Talking about the work Flintfox does
06:51 – What makes Flintfox different from other pricing software companies?
09:40 – Discussion about the complexity of pricing nowadays
11:20 – Avoiding channel conflict and posting things for the public to see
13:25 – The challenge of increasing prices during this period of inflation
18:02 – John, business software, and value-based pricing
22:36 – Pricing table topics: “Fixed costs never matter to pricing. Never, never, never.”
25:04 – John’s pricing advice
Key Takeaways:
“Software is no longer build something, release it, and it stays stable and constant forever. Software nowadays is constantly evolving and changing, and so the pricing model for that product had to change as well.” – John Moss
“It’s increasingly important, I think, to have a good data set and an integrated data set to be able to understand exactly how your product portfolio is performing and what margins you’re making.” – John Moss
“We’re seeing more people have the confidence to put through a higher increase in the expectation that they do it once and maybe it lasts for 9-12 months, as opposed to putting through 3% now and then come back in two or three months’ time for another 3%, which that sort of attritional increase is probably less well received by customers than a big bang.” – John Moss
“It’s a consequence of software. What young people and you and I now expect is that software gets better all the time. I mean, we all see it every day. Every app we have on our phone gets updated all the time incrementally. But some of these applications do improve functionality quite significantly over a number of years. And so that’s what you’re paying for, effectively – the fact that the developers are still working on this product.” – John Moss
People / Resources Mentioned:
- Flintfox International: https://www.flintfox.com/
- MYOB: https://www.myob.com/
- Microsoft: https://www.microsoft.com/
Connect with John Moss:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnrmoss/
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
John Moss
For many organizations, pricing has been off to the side and somebody who’s got a quantitative bent will do that and look into it. I think there’s an increasing need to employ experts in the organization that understand pricing, that understand pricing models, how you create value, and can help you manage through the current period of uncertainty.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the complex relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving and our guest today is John Moss. Here are three things you’d want to learn about John before we start.
He is the CEO of Flintfox International, a pricing software company. His previous role was Chief Strategy Officer and GM (General Manager) at MYOB. He lives in my favorite country, which is New Zealand, and by the way, he’s also trained to use explosive and radioactive devices, so if something happens during the podcast, it’s probably his fault.
Welcome, John.
John Moss
Hi, Mark. Great to see you.
Mark Stiving
Hey, it’s good to have you here. How did you get into pricing?
John Moss
Well, I guess like many people – sort of accidentally.
At a previous company, software company, we were looking to make the move from a perpetual license product to a subscription license product, and somebody had to manage that transition and sort of work out how to do that, and that sort of fell on me as my chief role. I was lucky enough at that time to do a study tour to the West Coast of the US and met with Adobe, Microsoft, Autodesk, and a bunch of other companies that were going through the same transition, and then tried to make that work for my software company in terms of that shift, that sort of recognition that software is no longer build something, release it, and it stays stable and constant forever. Software nowadays is constantly evolving and changing, and so the pricing model for that product had to change as well. So that’s how I got into it.
Later on, I did conjoint analysis and looked at demand elasticity and all that sort of good stuff. And way back before then, in my oil and gas days, I was involved in bidding on exploration acreage. That oil and gas projects could last up to 50 years, and so having to think about oil price over a 50-year horizon to work out how much you can afford to pay a government upfront. That was, I guess, tangential to pricing, but that was the very first time I had that sort of interaction with pricing.
Mark Stiving
Oh, that’s pretty fascinating. What’s one or two huge lessons you learned when you went from transactional to subscription pricing?
John Moss
There’s a couple of things. One is just around how do you set a price when your changes are radically from a few hundred dollars a year to some amount per month, and how do you set that, and how do the customers react, and how do sales react to that?
And so, what I learned through that and I guess the conjoint is that you can do all the surveys you want; human behavior is often very different to how they respond to a survey. And so, whilst you can do as much as you possibly can in terms of being informed for that decision, there’s still a little bit of hope and faith at the end that all goes as you want it to. It’s never easy when you’ve got human behavior to consider.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think it’s pretty fair to say in most cases, there might be a few exceptions, but in most cases, we never know if we’re right when we set a price, and we really have to do trial and error or plan on making tweaks to whatever it is we put out there relatively quickly.
John Moss
Yeah, you got to be prepared to move quickly. In my case, when I ran some conjoint analysis and got a demand elasticity curve, about six months later, we made a mistake in that pricing and ended up putting up prices by 50 and not 5% for some customers which tested the end of the elasticity curve and it brought down pretty much quickly. And so that gave us the first inkling that whilst we’ve done the analysis, it may not be that applicable at the high end of the curve.
Mark Stiving
Yes. I think 50 is probably possible, but not overnight. Oftentimes, it’s really hard to shock customers overnight for a lot of those.
John Moss
Yeah, absolutely.
Mark Stiving
So, tell me, what does Flintfox do? Honestly, I’ve never heard of them before. How do they compare to other pricing software companies?
John Moss
We have an intelligent pricing platform that either replaces or sits alongside ERPs for very large customers. We have a specialization in sort of retail, consumer goods, distribution, manufacturing, and our customers typically have sort of tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of SKUs.
What we do is we’re focused on the execution of pricing. We don’t do price optimization. What we do is once you have a price, we enable that through the various systems to be delivered to the right customer at the right time through the right channel, and give you the visibility of your margins. We also do rebate management, commission management. And so, at its entirety, we can show you exactly how your products are performing based on current volumes and sales through your channels as well as what you’re purchasing from your suppliers.
I’ve certainly learned out of my time that price execution is not as simple as it seems. Like in a previous company, it used to take six months to affect a price change. We can do that now instantaneously with the software that we have.
Mark Stiving
That’s funny because I was about to say that one of my clients, it takes some six months to change the price, which is just incredible.
John Moss
Yeah, it’s gob smacking. When I got into pricing in my previous company, the assumption was that you change your price or you work out what the price should be and you can go and tell somebody in the IT team and it will just happen. But when you realize it takes six months, it just blows your mind and then, of course, changes the whole dynamic around how you have to plan pricing and thinking so far ahead because you’re essentially setting a price to six months out and trying to understand how things have moved in that period of time. It’s a little bit more difficult than it is when you just look at the current day information. So yeah, it’s a bit mind-blowing that it takes so long.
Mark Stiving
So, do you target your software at the retailer or at the consumer goods manufacturer?
John Moss
Both. We can add, I think, more value to somebody within the supply chain that’s got both what we call buy side and sell side. So, if they’re buying supplies and they’re receiving rebates or commissions from their suppliers and price breaks on volume, and then they’re pushing their end products through to retailers, there’s more value in that. But we have quite a number of retailers as the customers of ours because it’s pretty complex when you’ve got, in some cases, millions, and we’ve had one prospect that’s got billions of prices. It’s really hard to understand exactly how you’re doing at a portfolio level, at a product range level, and then your product level. We just enable that through sort of rules-based engines to enable you to see margins.
Mark Stiving
So, I’m not going to say this sounds easy because I’m sure it isn’t, but it does sound obvious. What is the magic that you guys get to it?
John Moss
Yeah, there’s a couple of things. One is just the logic. We would have a number of hierarchies in terms of you can have a base price and then you would have a number of things that come off that in terms of for this particular geography, you might have a price break of this particular customer group or this particular product set, even store based, even customer based from loyalty. And so, you have all these hierarchies that you have to then go through, as well as then special deals that get negotiated. And so, we have that for a rules-based engine perspective, but we’re also bloody fast. Our secret is that we have a memory pricing.
For a number of customers with particular ERP systems, we actually rip out the pricing engine from their ERP and essentially plumb ours in, because many customers we tried now have tested the limits of the ERP system; it simply can’t reprice. So, if they – for whatever reason – reprice daily with their number of SKUs, it takes about more than a day to reprice and you simply can’t do that. And so, we offer speed as well as a very logical system, and a simple way for pricing people in organizations to manage price.
Mark Stiving
And is your solution cloud-based subscription?
John Moss
It is. Yes. In one case, so the Dynamic 365, that’s where we have a fully integrated solution. We rip out the dynamics pricing engine and put ours in. Every other ERP, we have a standalone SaaS solution that integrates into the ERP.
Mark Stiving
Well, the reason I ask is because that means – and I’m not saying that you use it – but that means you have access to a ton of data, which I would find fascinating. Tell me, I’m going to ask you a question and you don’t have to answer, but I’m going to ask it. What percent of rebates actually get refilled, returned?
John Moss
Most companies, if they receive rebates on either side of the supply chain, most companies would get over 90% back, and that’s why we get called in is the accuracy of rebate calculation. Either because you’re offering rebates or you’re receiving rebate, it’s critical if you’re getting hundreds of millions of dollars of rebates every year. And so those five or six percent that you don’t get, if that’s five to $10 million, it’s worth trying to investigate those to make sure that you don’t get excess claims on the other side.
So, most are pretty good, but they’re by no means foolproof just because of the complexity of the claims that come through when you’re pushing through hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of orders to a particular supplier or customer and it gets really hard to work out exactly what’s going on. You simply can’t do that in manufacturing. It’s just too complex.
Mark Stiving
Cool. So, tell me about the complexity of pricing nowadays, because it seems to me that we have so many channels, so many ways that we can sell our products. Some customers go direct. We have retail, we’re Internet, web-based. How do we manage all that?
John Moss
Increasingly, we’re seeing companies invest in pricing in their organizations. And so, I think there’s a number of factors.
One is the complexity, as you say. There are now many more channels over the last two years of the pandemic, lots of direct to consumer channels have been created, and that adds more complexity in terms of building new systems to enable that to occur, whether that’s particular websites or whether it’s supply chain logistics to ensure that products go from A to B and lined up where they’re supposed to.
And the second is what’s going on right now with the rising inflation, supply chain disruption; your input costs are changing dramatically. And so that’s also driven a need to have people to think about that and to invest in pricing to ensure that you do understand how your products are performing, you do understand what margins you are making and how that’s changing. We spoke to customers that in their particular business, they’re a pricing six months out to their customers. And so, when they get supply chain disruption and changing costs, it has a material impact on their business.
It’s increasingly important, I think, to have a good data set and an integrated data set to be able to understand exactly how your product portfolio is performing and what margins you’re making. It probably has led to that increase in the number of pricing people in organizations and a real focus on pricing alongside sales and marketing in terms of how you create value in the organization.
Mark Stiving
Most manufacturers, and I’m not sure what the word is, but they try to organize or coordinate the pricing across different channels. For example, I work in B2B most often, but I typically tell my clients, if you’re going to sell direct, that should be at your highest price point and you should never be competing with your channels downstream. And so, is that something that most retailers are doing?
John Moss
To some degree. I think as companies sort of go into those channels, they’re sort of learning as they go, and so trying to avoid channel conflict is a key thing on most people’s minds as they do that. But pricing is hard, so that comes down to what is available publicly, what can people see. Clearly, if things are available, then you’re opening yourself up for questioning about how you’re setting pricing. And so, I think each business is a little bit unique in terms of what they show publicly, what they show through websites that have customer logins, for example. In the B2B world, if you’ve got a range of customers, you might be offering different prices to them based on the volume and their size, their history, etc. And so, you need log in to show them separate prices. And so, it does get pretty, pretty complex to manage all that. Even though you have a base price per product, you then got all of these sorts of changes that come through as a consequence of different customers’ histories, etc. And as you say, direct to consumer arguably should be the highest priced because they are just a one-off transaction; typically, there’s no history, there’s no volume, and so they’ll see the base price.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, and I don’t want to compete with my channel is the other issue.
John Moss
Exactly. I mean, you need the channel to drive your business. And so, it’s always the case when you’ve got both direct and indirect channels. It’s how you manage that, how you ensure that you’re motivating your indirect channel or your partners to sell on your behalf, etc., because they’re typically responsible for a large proportion of your sales and you can’t afford for them to get frustrated and annoyed and go to a competitor. If you’ve got no sort of unique position in the market, then you’ll quickly realize that if you get the price wrong, you’ll start to lose key partners and your competitor can get them quickly.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, absolutely.
Let’s talk about the supply chain constraints for a second and what you’re seeing in the market. I want to give you my perspective real quickly and then I want to hear yours. But from my perspective, when I talk to clients, they’re afraid to raise prices. And when I talk to consumers or buyers, their attitude is always, “Hey, prices are going up. There’s nothing I can do about it.” So, it feels like we’ve got this difference in what’s going on. What do you see happening?
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John Moss
Yeah. I see businesses starting to push prices through, and it sort of comes down to how confident are they and what increase did they put through? And so, you’re absolutely right. I mean, businesses are seeing supply chain pressures, they’re seeing costs increase, they’re seeing issues around logistics and delivery. Most people understand that and they recognize we’re in an inflation world right now, and so there’s a degree of acceptance around that.
Now, plenty of people still try and resist that. And so, in a B2B environment, businesses will push back and try and cap and limit price increases on a go forward basis, but consumers are probably more accepting at this point in time; not that they like it, but they expect it’s going to happen. Like certainly here in Australia, in New Zealand, all the time you’re hearing about the increasing cost of fruit and vegetables and the fact that KFC have to replace lettuce in their food with cabbage because there’s no lettuce around. All those sorts of things. But on the supplier side, it sort of comes down to, “So I’ve got a bit of an increase in my supply costs. Do I put through 5%? Do I put through 10%?” And we’re seeing more people have the confidence to put through a higher increase in the expectation that they do it once and maybe it lasts for 9-12 months as opposed to putting through 3% now and then come back in two or three months’ time for another 3%, which that sort of attritional increase is probably less well received by customers than a big bang. 10% increase and we all understand that’s necessary, and then hopefully won’t change for the 12 months.
So, I think it’s a fairly new world for many people in business, this inflation, our supply chain side. And so, there’s a bit of feeling around to understand what we should be doing and plenty of advice out there from experts and professionals about how you should do that. But you can’t avoid all the sort of pricing papers right now in terms of how you sort of manage through this.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. What’s fascinating is nobody has lived through this for 40 years. Well, not nobody, but anybody in the free world like this has not lived through this for 40 years. So, all of a sudden, what do we do? How are we going to handle this?
John Moss
Absolutely.
Mark Stiving
Everybody’s been trained that price increases are really painful, really bad. And so, they’ve got to somehow get over that and figure out how they’re going to do this.
John Moss
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a necessary task for businesses to manage our margins through this period. I guess many people are trying to understand, looking back in history, let’s just say it’s 40 odd years since we got inflation at this whole level. So how did they cope back then in times where we had years, if not decades of inflation? How do you manage price with that process, for that time, and how long would it last? How hard do I go? Will that be enough to keep you going for the next 12-18 months or get me through to the other side? Or is this going to be a standard part of our business process from now on that we’re looking at price rises every year or every six months, or will it be depending on the product or service you’re offering?
So, it is a new challenge and one that will get a lot of focus, I’m sure, over the next six, 12 months, because I suspect that inflation will be here for a little while yet before it’s hopefully under control.
Mark Stiving
It’s a pretty fascinating world.
Now, one of the things that you and I have not talked about at all, in fact, you said your price execution, not price optimization, but what we haven’t talked about and I always talked about is value. And when we do pricing, we want to think about what’s the value to the customer. I usually think of it as how much is a customer willing to pay. So, what is your perspective on that, and does Flintfox help companies at all with that aspect?
John Moss
Yeah. My view on value-based pricing is for your product or service, you’re charging a price that in some way reflects the value you’re delivering to the customer. And so, in some ways, that’s an optimal pricing model, but it is challenging to execute in the sense that it’s often hard to understand the value you’re creating. It’s often hard, even if you know that, to work out how much of that should be shared between the customer and yourself. And it’s sometimes not at all well accepted by customers. And so, I agree it’s probably the best way to derive as much of the initial pay as possible, but it’s a really hard one. We face that in our business. We try to understand.
Mark Stiving
I think for your business, it’s really important and you should be thinking about it. I think for your customers, when you have 100,000 or more SKUs, it’s impossible to do value-based pricing in every SKU; you just can’t do it. And so, thinking about doing portfolios of products and where’s the most value coming from and how much margin or markup am I going to – I hate the word markup, but that’s okay – how much markup I going to take on certain products versus other products based on the value in our marketplace, I think these types of things make sense.
And so, I typically teach that companies have to make a tradeoff between the cost of execution for these strategies and then the return you’re going to get when you do these strategies. So, for retail, oftentimes it’s pretty hard to truly do good value-based pricing.
John Moss
Yeah. I mean, if I think about business software in general and not specific anything at all, business software typically provides some benefit to the organization that employs it. And oftentimes, that’s through automation and removal of manual process, but it also provides visibility of information and good data. And so, if I think about business software and its value to an organization, part of this freeing up resources to do other things, and so you can typically cost labor in that sort of sense, but part of it is helping you make better decisions about how you run your business. And those are a little bit harder to value because it sort of ends up in sort of branches of options that you sort of look at and it just gets more and more complex to think through those. And so, it is a little bit tricky at times.
And as I said, if I think way back when to when I first got into pricing with that perpetual subscription move, consumers were not overly happy about that. Like, I used to pay $100 for the software and I had it for life, and now I’ve got to pay $50 a month forever? That’s a pretty big shift. And as I said, if you got business-critical software, then people get over that pretty quickly when they realize how important it is and they sort of do see the value.
So, it’s an ongoing debate discussion on the value-based pricing side. And I think you come across some customers that are willing to have those discussions and think about, okay, if you can come into my business and make the changes that’s going to deliver these outcomes, then I’m happy to pay 2%, 3%, whatever the number is of those benefits. And as long as you have a good relationship and a partnership that you trust the business to give that the right information and the right data, then then you can move forward. But much often, that’s a rare thing to find. Most customers would probably just pay a flat fee for subscription.
Mark Stiving
So young people probably won’t understand this like you and I will, but it still ticks me off that I pay Microsoft $10 a month right now for Office.
John Moss
Yeah, and they had started that process just when I was looking at doing the same thing with our software way back when; that’s what we did the West Coast. As I said, it’s a consequence of software. What young people and you and I now expect is that software gets better all the time. I mean, we all see it every day. Every app we have on our phone gets updated all the time incrementally. But some of these applications do improve functionality quite significantly over a number of years. And so that’s what you’re paying for, effectively – the fact that the developers are still working on this product.
Mark Stiving
Can I say I would probably be happy with Office 2000 right now or whatever the heck it was, because I don’t think I use any features that they put in since then.
Hey John, it’s time. We’re going to play pricing table topics. I told you a little bit about it ahead of time. I’ve got my deck of cards. Everybody can see it. I’m going to shuffle them real fast. Now I’m going to randomly pick a card for John. Here we go. Pick a card. Any card. That one. Good job. This is seven of spades. Here we go.
John Moss
Seven of spades. Love it.
Mark Stiving
“Fixed costs never matter to pricing. Never, never, never.” You’ve got one minute to talk about that. I’ll time you and I’ll tell you when your minute’s up.
John Moss
So, if we’re meaning that you have a product set, that it has some fixed cost and variable costs, I don’t think it should never matter because you need to have at a minimum cost recovery in order to make profits. And so, whilst I understand that you need to set price and the variable cost may be more of the component and that the fixed cost is certainly a necessary component in the calculation, the overall cost for the product and the price that you set.
If you’re talking sunk costs as opposed to fixed cost, that’s a little bit different. If you’ve got a project in the sunk costs, then as you’re looking at this day and moving forward, then you don’t consider those in terms of profitability. Those are goals. It’s what you’re going to incur from this point forward, the benefits you derive from this point forward that will enable you to then assess the project profitability and the value of doing that piece of work. But if you’re selling a product or service, then the fixed cost that you have in terms of building a widget and you know, there’s $10 of widget in that, then you need to ensure that you cover those.
Mark Stiving
Excellent job. That was one minute and 10 seconds. Nice. Was it easy? Just curious.
John Moss
Perfect. After the initial two second shock as to what topic it will be, I was glad it was like the pricing and not some random topic. I didn’t know that.
Mark Stiving
Cool. So, if I don’t say this, my listeners are going to be really upset with me. Just so that you know, I disagree with you completely, but that’s okay.
John Moss
Okay, that’s cool.
Mark Stiving
My perception on fixed cost is that they have to be covered, right? We have to make a profit. But if I could choose an optimal price based on what my variable costs are, my demand curve, assuming those things are real, then whether my fixed costs go up or down, it doesn’t change my optimal price. The only thing fixed costs matter to is should I be in this business or not? That’s my perspective.
John Moss
Right.
Mark Stiving
Not saying that you’re wrong. Okay, I am. But that’s beside the point.
John Moss
I get you.
Mark Stiving
So, John, we’re going to wrap this up with the last question and my favorite question of all. What’s the one piece of pricing advice you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
John Moss
It would be to invest in pricing in the organization. I think for many organizations, pricing has been off to the side and somebody who’s got a quantitative bent will do that and look into it. I think there’s an increasing need to employ experts in the organization that understand pricing, that understand pricing models, how you create value, and can help you manage through the current period of uncertainty. It’s never been more important in my mind to have really good pricing and to have the right value.
Mark Stiving
I just love that answer. And if you think about it, how much money and effort does a company invest in cost reduction? How much money and effort do they invest in training procurement people how to negotiate? And yet pricing and revenue is so much more important.
John Moss
Yeah, absolutely. If you can have a pricing person that helps you deliver an 8% price increase rather than a 4% price increase, that’s going to be way more valuable than shaving 0.2% off your costs for the next 12 months.
Mark Stiving
Just amazing.
John Moss
It always feels strange to me that the focus is always on the cost reduction side and never on the revenue growth side through pricing.
Mark Stiving
Why do you think that is?
John Moss
I think it’s easy to understand cost reduction, like you understand how you produce something or make something, and so it’s easy to focus on that. On the pricing side, there’s a bit of a leap of faith for some people that you can execute and deliver on that, and it doesn’t feel as easy for some companies, and I guess it may not be as easy to find the right sort of people that can do that. I think there’s a need for pricing to become more prevalent and front and center to organizations and that’s sort of driven by sort of associations, etc.
Mark Stiving
I agree completely. I think another reason might be that it’s easy to assign costs to somebody, and everybody touches pricing, and so it’s hard to say, “Hey, you’re the one responsible for pricing.”
John Moss
Yeah, and those are the costs in your own control to some degree. Like you control all the efforts around cost in your organization. Pricing relies on a customer agreeing to pay. And there’s that little bit of fear that if you change something or change a model or change a price, they may not agree to pay and you’ll lose a customer. And so that’s the other piece. It’s just the confidence in what you offer and the ability to get the value that you deserve.
Mark Stiving
Excellent. John, thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
John Moss
Through LinkedIn.
Mark Stiving
Okay.
John Moss
John Moss of Flintfox.
Mark Stiving
We’ll put the link in the show notes so it’ll be easy for people to find you.
Alright. Episode 187 is all done. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this, would you please leave us a rating and a review? And please tell a friend.
And finally, if you have any questions or comments about this podcast or pricing in general, feel free to email me: [email protected]. Now, go make an impact.
