Stéphane Joanis started his career as a Chemical Engineer. It is with Thermo Fisher that he got involved in business and pricing, and just this January, Stephane launched his own consulting business which he calls SJ Performance, LLC. This is where he practices his expertise in B2B Instrumentation Pricing as he and his team provides coaching to help you build a strong pricing culture in a way that provides confidence and leads to trust.
In this episode, Stéphane educates us on the importance of achieving organizational transformation in a company as you value the trust in the relationship you have with your customers.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- The importance of having people from different functional groups to talk about and practice value-based pricing and keep each other in check
- How the creation of strategies that inspire trust with your customers help your sales velocity to go up
- The power organizational transformation has in shifting from conventional pricing practices to having a value-based mindset in pricing
“The data is a means to the answer, towards getting insights. But it’s a foundation. Only data can trump politics. So, I think it’s important to get your data and extract value from that data. Out of the specifications, go and get what is that value to your customer.”
– Stéphane Joanis
Topics Covered:
01:40 – How Stephane got into pricing; the importance of trust
03:32 – On building trust: Attack the processes, not the people
05:55 – Starting his business to guide people towards organizational transformation
06:28 – What organizational transformation is all about
08:56 – The trick to see something as a loss vs. as a gain
11:13 – How to help people have a value-based mindset: Specification language vs. value language
14:00 – Talking to customers and splitting up win-loss
16:07 – Formula of sales velocity and how that relates to trust
19:31 – “I will raise your price to the extent that I’m not breaking your trust”
23:12 – Intuitive/statistical hearing as a way to talk to customers
25:01 – Stéphane’s pricing advice
Key Takeaways:
“Everybody has a different point of view. There’s so much psychology behind it. As you pointed out, there’s a trust element. We have to agree to disagree. We have to have a certain level of trust, because everybody has a different objective with price. And so, how do you get everybody together, and how do you get prices aligned between them? It requires a certain level of trust if you want to do it well.” – Stéphane Joanis
“That’s the key to organizational transformation. It’s not just about a process; it’s about the people as well.” – Stéphane Joanis
“You have to show what the customer is losing for them to truly appreciate what you have to offer and the value of your product and service.” – Stéphane Joanis
“There’s a price to trust.” – Stéphane Joanis
People / Resources Mentioned:
- SJ Performance, LLC: https://sjperformancecoach.com/
- Pricing with Confidence: 10 Ways to Stop Leaving Money on the Table: https://www.amazon.com/Pricing-Confidence-Leaving-Money-Table/dp/0470197579
- SPIN Selling by Neil Rackham: https://www.amazon.com/SPIN-Selling-Neil-Rackham/dp/0070511136
- Selling Value by Mark Stiving: https://www.amazon.com/Selling-Value-Deals-Higher-Prices/dp/1737655217
- The Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey: https://www.speedoftrust.com/#the-book
- Data and/or Value (blog): https://impactpricing1.wpengine.com/blog/data-and-or-value/
- Focus on insights and not data (blog): https://www.sjperformancecoach.com/blog/focus-on-insights-and-not-data
Connect with Stéphane Joanis:
- Website: https://sjperformancecoach.com/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/st%C3%A9phane-joanis-6509921a/
- Email: [email protected]
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Stéphane Joanis
The data is a means to the answer, towards getting insights. But it’s a foundation. Only data can trump politics. So, I think it’s important to get your data and extract value from that data. Out of the specifications, go and get what is that value to your customer.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Today’s podcast is sponsored by Jennings Executive Search. I had a great conversation with John Jennings about the skills needed in different pricing roles. He and I think a lot alike. If you’re looking for a new pricing role or if you’re trying to hire just the right pricing person, I strongly suggest you reach out to Jennings Executive Search. They specialize in placing pricing people. Say that three times fast.
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the trusting relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving, and our guest today is Stephane Joanis, and here are three things you’d want to learn about Stephane before we start.
He started life as a Chemical Engineer; so did my brother, by the way. He got into pricing and business at Thermo Fisher, and he just launched his own consulting business. And by the way, he’s currently reading my new book, Selling Value. If he gives it a plug, I’m paying him a dollar.
Welcome, Stephane.
Stéphane Joanis
Thank you, Mark. I’ll take you up on that dollar, by the way.
Mark Stiving
Okay. Hey, how did you get into pricing?
Stéphane Joanis
It actually started earlier in my career as an engineer. In 1993, I was actually working to improve the quality of selenium, and this is a material like a metal and metalloid, and the price decision was made in an office with my manager. I guess the breeze was pointing in a direction that suggested that modest price increase. So anyways, price was increased on that day based on the whim, and the experience marked me; I always questioned if I could do that better. And then I started to read the book in 2005, Pricing with Confidence: 10 Ways to Stop Leaving Money on the Table by Reed Holden and Mark Burton.
Mark Stiving
Yup.
Stéphane Joanis
And that marked me profoundly. And from there, I kept on studying pricing, and I’ve enjoyed the journey.
Mark Stiving
I tell you; pricing is a blast. And isn’t it funny how we all get into it in a different way, even though we come from someplace else?
Stéphane Joanis
Yeah, absolutely. Everybody has a different point of view, which makes it so interesting. There’s so much psychology behind it.
Mark Stiving
Yeah.
Stéphane Joanis
As you pointed out, there’s a trust element. I think the trust element is important, because of those different point of views. We have to agree to disagree. We have to have a certain level of trust, because everybody has a different objective with price. Some want to increase margins; some want to increase share gain. Some want to have prices align along their product lines. And so, how do you get everybody together, and how do you get prices aligned between them? It requires a certain level of trust if you want to do it well.
Mark Stiving
Oh my gosh. I am so thrilled with what you just said, because we have a three-minute conversation before I hit record, and you said you wanted to talk about trust. And I was thinking, “Oh, we need to make sure our customers trust us,” but no. He’s thinking, inside a company, we need to build trust around the organization. That’s phenomenal.
And so, how do you do that? Or have you had to do that? Just because if you think about it, every department cares about pricing, and they care about it differently.
Stéphane Joanis
Yeah. Great question, Mark, and I think that was one of the reasons why I volunteered for this podcast – it’s because it’s so dear and entrenched in my heart. How can I say it?
So, when you look at trust between organization, my experience way back, I actually used to do relational marketing. I built an organization of 250 people, customers, to coaching people, and we did that in six months. And I actually created work session to work with people, coach people, and we really had a tremendous success with that.
I’ve applied the same type of methodology in business, in creating monthly work sessions – a work session which was designed to really do a deep dive of some of the issues beyond measuring pricing, looking at a commercial team. So, we actually involve people in product management and the commercial team and finance to address things, but not in a way where you attack people, but you attack the processes; you’re really looking at the business problems. And so, it has to be a safe environment where everybody can pitch in. And also, it helps people to realize the implications of their decisions on other functional groups. And this is what was so powerful behind it, because then we start to align and really got results.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think that’s a fabulous answer.
I remember, I’ve been a pricing expert for forever, but I didn’t learn this lesson until probably midway through my pricing career. And it was fascinating because I had a mentor who taught me how he did things, and what he did was he went around to every single department and had interviews and one-on-ones and conversations and he wanted to know ‘what was your goal?’ What are the things you’re trying to get accomplished? What are the problems you see with pricing? And he took everybody’s thoughts into consideration as he was making decisions, building proposals. It was truly fabulous. I learned so much from him, and I’ll never forget it. I’m super grateful to him.
Stéphane Joanis
I think one of the areas about trust, what I realized over time is that you can find a lot of analysts, and very good pricing analysts that will find pricing opportunities for their clients.
There’s another aspect of pricing, which is coaching – which is the organizational transformation – and that is a tougher one to address. And that’s where I found I actually provided more value in the long run, and that’s what led me to build my business and create my business – SJ Performance, LLC – to be able to guide that organizational transformation with a trusted environment where the organization is going in the direction very structured way with the least resources as possible and maximum results.
Mark Stiving
Okay. So, what are the tricks? Organizational transformation is- First off, do we call this change management or is it much bigger than that?
Stéphane Joanis
I think it’s bigger than change management. Organizational transformation is to actually create the mindset towards having powerful results, asking the right questions, and not being afraid to ask those questions, because you’ve created an environment where people are seeking to advance, they’re seeking for the same goal – for the business to make more profitability, for the business to succeed.
I think that organizational transformation requires to go through paradigm shifts, and definitely requires executive sponsorship; it’s mission critical. Without executive sponsorship, you’re going to hit stumbling blocks, because of paradigms. I think that’s the key to organizational transformation. It’s not just about a process; it’s about the people as well.
Mark Stiving
Okay. So organizational transformation is a really nice word. We’re going to transform from what to what?
Stéphane Joanis
We’re going to transform from conventional pricing practices to value-based pricing.
When I look at value-based pricing, I’m not just looking at the price of a product, but I’m looking also at the communication of your price. It has to involve your marketing team, not just communicating specifications, but communicating a value to a customer. It involves the sales team, asking the right questions, understanding the type of question to ask to get implications.
The AI found that if you ask questions and you get the customer to be part of the decision process, once the decision is made, the customer will defend his decision much more than they will defend yours. So, it’s important to involve them.
The implication question, this goes with the SPIN Selling from Neil Rackham. He made a study on over 35,000 sales calls. And there’s a type of question that really led to success, at least in the instrumentation business or in the business where you have more complex business. The implication question gets your customer to realize the implication of not having your solution. So, you can sell value, but the fear of losing is greater than the desire to gain, in many cases. So, you have to show what the customer is losing for them to truly appreciate what you have to offer and the value of your product and service.
Mark Stiving
Okay. So, this is standard prospect theory, behavioral economics; love that. And I liked that you said that. What’s the trick to getting someone to perceive something as a loss instead of something as a gain?
Stéphane Joanis
The trick to see something as a loss versus a gain. I think the more powerful ways to actually look at some of the historical behavior and provide insights in terms of here are the decisions that were taken and here’s the alternative path that could have been chosen and here’s the opportunity that was missed. It makes it real, because it’s actually based on the data from your customer.
Mark Stiving
Okay. So, I’m going to say what you just said, but I’m going to put it in very abstract terms that I think are much simpler.
Stéphane Joanis
Alright.
Mark Stiving
And that is, I’m going to convince you that you need to throw this switch. Now, I can either tell you that once you throw this switch, you’re going to make a lot more money, or I’m going to tell you that if you turn this switch a year ago, look at how much money you just lost. How did that sound?
Stéphane Joanis
If you look at the year… I’ve got to reflect on this one, Mark.
Mark Stiving
So, I just took the exact same thing, throwing a switch, and I said in future sense, it’s a gain; in past sense, it’s a loss. By the way, I just made this up, because of what you said, not because I’ve thought about this deeply.
Stéphane Joanis
No, I understand. Well, I guess, now that you’re making me reflect on this, I would want both. Definitely, the past/the loss is important, because if it’s a loss, it’s real and there’s a fear of losing more of that, but I would definitely want to measure the opportunity in the future. And so, here’s the value now of doing it, which may actually be greater than the loss that you’ve experienced, but now you’ve got some data that shows you that it’s realizable. Does it make sense?
Mark Stiving
Absolutely. In fact, as you’re reading my book, you’ll notice I talk about value tables a lot. And the value tables – what’s the value of some feature? What’s the value of some product? And I might have to restructure my thinking, that instead of saying what’s the value of changing this, it’s how much value did you lose last year because you didn’t do this. And I think the loss might be more powerful than the gain. I think that’s a really interesting insight.
Stéphane Joanis
Well, I’m glad I’m able to provide insight, Mark.
Mark Stiving
Okay. Let’s jump back. I asked how do you transform an organization, you started talking about a bunch of different departments, and you were talking about, if I put it in my language, you were talking about how do I get them to all have a value-based mindset. So, how do I get them to start thinking about the value customers perceive from our products. How do you do that? I mean, I find this really challenging to get people to want to learn about value.
Stéphane Joanis
Well, in your book, you mentioned many times. By the way, I enjoy your book, Selling Value. It’s great. I’m really enjoying. I’m right now reading the part about the value discussion. I’m right in the middle of it. But I would say-
Mark Stiving
Thank you, Stéphane. I’m only giving you $1. I’m not giving you multiple dollars.
No, go ahead. I just jumped in.
Stéphane Joanis
So, how do we extract value? The first thing I would talk about is specifications versus value drivers and perceived value, as you point in your book. The perceived value and willingness to pay are what it’s about. But sometimes, it requires to make an observation to show what is not value.
And so, a specification – let’s use a ball bearing. There’s nothing simpler than the ball bearing maybe, or no, there’s probably things that are simpler, but let’s look at the basic ball bearing. Everybody can picture it in their mind. You can have a ball bearing that’s three inch, three feet, 20 feet in diameter. There’s a perception that the larger ball bearing is going to be more expensive. But I think you said that if you start to dig into it, you look, it’s like, okay, it’s a one inch, two inch, or you look at your precision – one micron versus .001 micron. Okay, that’s a specification. So what?
But you start to look at value, and the .001 micron – and I’m just making up right here – that could pertain to the aviation industry. There might be an application where they require this to be able to fly in the air and make sure that nothing breaks down. Now, you’re talking about value. So why is .001 micron important to the customer? And then the customers’ eye is where you derive that value.
So how do you bring that to the team? I think you provide very simple examples of specification language versus value language to make that contrast until people really get it. You may actually bring a few examples repetitively from one session to the other. People eventually get it. That perceived value is so important. And you have to be careful not to take just the pluses, but you have to take the pluses and minus. Sometimes, we might be drinking too much of our own Kool-Aid. That’s why you want people from different functional groups, so that way, we can keep each other in check.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. How often do we look at something our competitors do better, and just say, “Oh, that’s not important”?
Stéphane Joanis
It was important to them.
Mark Stiving
Right. It’s probably important to somebody, and it would be good for us to understand why and how and what’s going on.
Stéphane Joanis
A way to find out if it’s important is maybe to stop asking just our customers and maybe look at other people’s customers and ask them the question: what’s important to you? We might find that we are dealing with different customers or different markets altogether.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Oftentimes, it’s different market segments because they have different problems to solve.
Stéphane Joanis
Correct. Right.
Mark Stiving
And so, I think another thing you just pointed out, which is really valuable to all of us, is we should be talking to our customers and we should be talking to our competitors’ customers, right? I don’t think I’ve written this in any of my books, but we talked about it in pragmatic training a lot. Win-loss is such an important skill or task or whatever you want to call it, but we all ought to be doing it, and understanding why do we win deals and why do we lose deals, because that should shape almost everything we think about in our business, our products, our marketing, our sales techniques – almost everything.
Stéphane Joanis
And I would say, I’d be careful with a win rate sometimes, or actually, sorry, the loss rate, because sometimes, you may not be winning something, but it’s not a loss. Sometimes, the customer just abandoned the idea and they’re not buying it. Period. Not from you, not from anybody else. And so, we have to be careful not to count that necessarily as a loss, which sometimes I see people doing. I do believe that win rate and looking at the tendency in your win rate is actually a good metric in general. It gives you perspective overtime.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think it’s fair. And in fact, the more we bifurcate or dissect or divide up these different metrics that we tend to use, the more clarity they give us. And I think it’s perfectly fair to say win-loss isn’t really two metrics, right? Win-loss really is, did we win it? Did a competitor win it? Did they not buy anything?
Stéphane Joanis
Right.
Mark Stiving
That’s a pretty easy way to split up win loss.
Stéphane Joanis
Mark, there’s one thing I’ll say. I really liked, in the first parts of your book, you’re talking about the win rate, the closing rate, etc. And if we think of a blog I recently wrote on sales velocity. And sales velocity is a concept that is used, I’ve seen it with sales operations we hear; it’s a metric to track your sales team and their effectiveness. And essentially, what you’re measuring is the number of opportunities times the size of your deals times your win rate and you divide that by the length of your sales cycle, and this relates to trust. I’ll get to that in a second. But when you look at pricing-
Mark Stiving
Wait, give me the formula one more time because I got to think through this way you say. I’ve never used this formula before.
Stéphane Joanis
Alright. So, sales velocity represents dollars, based on the number of opportunities that you have, multiplied by the size of those opportunities, so those are dollars.
Mark Stiving
Okay.
Stéphane Joanis
Multiplied by the win rate, so everything you’ve been quoting, you have a win rate, and there’s the amount of dollars. Now you divide that by the length of your sales cycle.
Alright, so I’ll drive the point here. What happens to the length of a sales cycle if you break the trust of your customer? What methods do they use to make sure that they have the right price and the lowest price they can get?
Mark Stiving
By far, we’re going to delay it.
Stéphane Joanis
Absolutely. RFPs, RFQs, we need three quotes – all these different techniques to make sure now that they have the right price. Now, if you build a relationship and you have a relationship with a customer and they asked you for a price, how long is that sales cycle now? Much shorter.
Mark Stiving
Not only is the sales cycle shorter, but we’re probably winning the deal at a higher price, because they trust us.
Stéphane Joanis
So, in the sales velocity equation, the deal value – the value, the size of your deal – has increased, your win rate has probably increased because you’re in an environment of trust, and your sales cycle has decreased. So, your total sales velocity is going up, because you’ve created strategies that inspire trust with your customers. Your sales team cannot focus on more deals because they’re not spending as much time on pricing, RFPs, RFQs, etc. So, you reduce also the cost.
And there’s a great book on trust, which was written by Stephen Covey, called The Speed of Trust. It’s a great proposal on the implication of trust in the business environment. It’s an economical proposal, and it just shows how everything, your costs go down, and everything related to cost and processes and business gets optimized when you have a trusted environment.
We don’t need to go too far. Just go to the nearest airport and you will see the cost attributed to an environment with a lack of trust. It would be nice if we could walk in the plane and just fly, but we can’t do that because it’s not an environment of trust. And I do appreciate what they’re doing. They are checking for everyone. Well, I want to make sure that I’m safe in the plane. But this drives the point of the cost. The extra cost just for the security and for that environment with a lack of trust.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The more trust there is, the lower the costs are, the less checking there is, the less QA be on the receiving side we have to do.
Stéphane Joanis
And the same goes with pricing.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Okay, so now, as a pricing expert, because you trust me, I’m going to raise your price.
Stéphane Joanis
I will raise your price to the extent that I’m not breaking your trust. So, the willingness to pay comes in mind. I’ll give you an example.
There’s a study that was made around a customer service, and what they have found out is that if you mess it up, you have a product that you’re selling and you mess it up, and you admitted to it and then you do the right thing, there’s a higher likelihood that the customer will come and buy back from you than if there was not any problem at all in the first place with the order.
Mark Stiving
Yup.
Stéphane Joanis
So, let’s say we add– because sometimes, as pricing experts, we may create some challenges as well. Let’s say there was an issue in a process and the price was tripled, and the customer buys the product, and it’s tripled the price that he usually pays, but based on trust, he just bought it. You find out that you made a mistake. What do you do with it? You say, “Oh, he’s willing to pay for it” and just let them go?
Mark Stiving
I go to the bank and deposit the check. What?
Stéphane Joanis
Yeah, but for sake of the relationship, so now he notices that you deposit the cheque and he’s paid three times the amount for the item. And let’s make this in the sense that he realizes that you knew, and you took advantage of the situation, and you just deposited in the bank, knowing that it was three times the price that he normally pays, without saying anything. Wouldn’t you rather go back to your customer and admit to this issue? We’re talking an error here, its gross error in price.
Mark Stiving
I’m completely with you.
Stéphane Joanis
Okay.
Mark Stiving
And I think if there was a huge error in price, I would absolutely go fix it. That’s not an issue.
Stéphane Joanis
Right.
Mark Stiving
But I think the other side is–
Stéphane Joanis
Two percent I’m not worried about.
Mark Stiving
In fact, I often teach clients this – to test price increases to see when people start to get upset.
Stéphane Joanis
Yep.
Mark Stiving
And once people start getting upset, then we’ve probably reached the limit. Let’s stop doing these price increases.
Stéphane Joanis
Agree.
Mark Stiving
That isn’t necessarily based in trust, but it is taking advantage of any trust that I might have built. And so, if you think about it, I’m actually getting paid for that trust, because of the fact that I can raise my price.
Stéphane Joanis
Right. Yes. And you pointed out in your book, that people get the best price, they’re not necessarily the ones that are– it’s not to say your biggest customers or best customers are the ones that negotiate the best. So yeah, there’s a price to trust, and a customer that is trusting may pay more. There’s also peace of mind to that, and there’s a value to that trust. I think we can charge more based on that trust. They know if there’s a mistake or there’s a problem that they can count on us to do the right thing. That will be my bottom line around it.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Fascinating conversation. I love this. But I think we’re talking about things that don’t happen as often as we expect. And if we go back to what we started the conversation with, we have to understand how much value are we delivering to our clients.
Stéphane Joanis
Yes.
Mark Stiving
And so, even though I’m raising your price, I’m still delivering a ton more value than before I raised your price.
Stéphane Joanis
And I’m with you on that, and we should raise it to the point of breakage, to the point where we get a complaint and they’re still buying it. That means that you still have that trust, you’ve got that willingness to pay, so definitely, you’re providing that value, and it is known by all parties that that value is set at this higher price point. Yeah, I’m all on board with them.
Mark Stiving
And when we raise prices, I have this four-step process for how to raise prices, and we need to make sure we’re communicating the fact that yes, we really are delivering a lot more value than what you thought you were paying for as one of those steps.
Stéphane Joanis
I do use a concept which is which I call intuitive hearing. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that; I think I’ve coined that one. I look for the level of complaints, statistically. I’m expecting some complaints. If you’re not getting any complaint on price, you’re too low. So, I use my intuitive hearing – statistical hearing is what I actually I should have said – my statistical hearing, and I’m looking and gauging what is the percentage of complaints on getting in there? Because that’s what I want. We need to raise that price to that level. And that’s the way I talk to my customers.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, that’s an interesting concept. In a similar vein, I often think about the fact that you can’t win them all, so we need some optimal loss ratio. And so, what is that optimal loss ratio? I have no idea. It depends on the situation in the market and your market share.
Stéphane Joanis
Yeah, agreed. It’s not like in the textbooks. When I did my MBA, they had this textbook with these nice lines. They’re all straight. I haven’t seen that in the industry yet.
Mark Stiving
You haven’t?
Stéphane Joanis
No.
Mark Stiving
One of my favorite commercials that I often quote in my blogs is Jay Leno’s quote; this was a commercial he did for Doritos. It says, “Go ahead and crunch them. We can make more,” which essentially says there’s no such thing as supply and demand. The more you eat, the more we’ll make. It’s okay.
Stéphane Joanis
Right. That’s a good one. I hadn’t heard that, so I’m going to keep that.
Mark Stiving
Go find the commercial on YouTube. It’s pretty cool.
Stéphane, this has been fun – as I expected it would be – but I have to ask you the final question. What’s one piece of pricing advice you’d give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Stéphane Joanis
Well, as mentioned, create strategies that build trust and aim for a win-win. But we’ve covered that, so let’s say, make data-based decisions. The answers are in the data. Now, the data is a means to the answer, right? Towards getting insights. But it’s a foundation. Only data can trump politics. So, I think it’s important to get your data and extract value from that data. Out of the specifications, go and get what is that value to your customer.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. I love the answer on data. I actually just published a blog. I think it just came out. And it was talking about the difference between data and value. And I look at data as a great way to validate or verify what you think might be true, but it’s really hard to look at data to figure out what’s true, to get the ideas, I should say. We have to get the ideas first somewhere, and then we would go into the database. Okay, now, is that really true? Is there any evidence for this?
Stéphane Joanis
I actually wrote a blog, maybe three weeks ago, on data versus inside based on a discussion I had with a product manager. And he was responsible for IOT, so the internet of things, and talking about data, and trying to get people to really buy in and the idea that data is important. And my response to them is data is important, but what you want to do is provide insights, because the value is in the insights. Too much data creates confusion, and can create work for people to try to figure out what data do I need to look at, what columns, where do I need to go? And so, it is your job to simplify things and provide the insights – insights for your leadership team that builds your business case, and then insights for your customer, because they’re the ones who are buying the product. And that is what’s going to provide the return on investment. It was a great conversation. So, very good topic. There was a line on it.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, exactly.
Stéphane, thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Stéphane Joanis
Simply, they can go on my website. I’m also on LinkedIn as Stéphane Joanis.
To email me would be just take S, like Stéphane, the first letter of my name, followed by my last name. So sjoanis@sjperformancecoach – that is SJ standing for Stéphane and Josephine, which is my wife’s name, because she’s an important supporter for my business. And then performancecoach.com ([email protected])
Mark Stiving
Alright. We’ll have that in the show notes as well. And I think you throw in the Josephine line just so you don’t get divorced.
Stéphane Joanis
23 years married to a beautiful Nigerian woman. I’m telling you, I’m happy.
Mark Stiving
Alright. Episode 174 is all done. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this, would you please leave us a rating and a review? And if you have any colleagues who are interested in pricing, would you please share this podcast with them? And if you have any questions or comments about the podcast or pricing in general, feel free to email me: [email protected]
Now, go make an impact.
Mark Stiving
Thanks again to Jennings Executive Search for sponsoring our podcast.
If you’re looking to hire someone in pricing, I suggest you contact someone who knows pricing people. Contact Jennings Executive Search.
