Duane Dufault is currently a Fractional CRO at Forward and is a Strategic Advisor at Abaqus Inc. Before this, he was Fractional VP of Sales at The RockED Company Inc. Duane is a dad of four lovely daughters.
In this episode, Duane shares the power behind having all departments in a company understand value in order to help the customer see and understand value as well in accordance with their reasons for buying a product.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Discover why it’s important for you to teach your sales reps to unpack value and not create it
- Find out why it’s a must for you to help people understand what it is that they’re actually paying for upon purchasing your product
- Understand the reason behind having clients voice out their problem and a salesperson being able to connect the product as a solution to what a client needs to be solved
“Just make it easy, seriously. The easier you can make it for people to figure out the pricing on your product, the easier it is for them to buy. Simple.”
– Duane Dufault
Topics Covered:
01:15 – The connection between Duane’s role and pricing
02:14 – That time when Duane realized the immense need for product management to focus on pricing
05:26 – Talking about the similarities and differences of product marketing and sales roles
09:50 – Should salespeople have the authority when it comes to pricing?
14:36 – Why salespeople need to unpack value, not create it
17:12 – Reminiscing Mark’s first few years as a salesperson
18:42 – Making a difference in the market in relation to value and what the customer’s needs are
23:08 – The difference between a CRO and a VP of Sales in Duane’s perspective
25:27 – Duane’s piece of pricing advice for today’s listeners
Key Takeaways:
“One of the growth levers that I was looking at is like how was pricing structured for whatever product it is because that’s a really big indicator on how people are going to buy from your company. If you’ve got hard to understand pricing, that’s a problem. And that’s friction in the buying process that you need to remove.” – Duane Dufault
“Product marketing and a good sales process are like two sides of the same point. It’s like sales and marketing, but like, a good sales process and product marketing is so closely tied, because the questions that a good product marketer asks are a lot of the same ones you get from a sales conversation, a discovery process, and they take them down the same path.
Product marketing is fascinating from my perspective because you need to have a certain perspective on customer engagement and usage to understand how to shape and evolve both the product, the customer journey, and what they pay for the product.” – Duane Dufault
“If you’ve got a sales rep that’s very, very focused and narrow-minded on one specific area, they can’t pull from other experiences.” – Duane Dufault
“Teach your reps how to unpack value, not add value.” – Duane Dufault
“If you come into your discovery process with a deck that just has a whole bunch of bullets of stuff that came from the marketing page, that’s not a value to them. They only find it valuable when they find it valuable, and it’s only valuable when it solves a problem. And you can’t solve a problem until you ask him what those problems are.” – Duane Dufault
“If you have a good discovery process that’s focused on the needs of the buyer, you’re going to help them figure out what those differences are, because people buy on an emotional trigger, and then cancellation happens when they find those little things that don’t meet up with what they really want to do. In the sales process and marketing, marketing is there to take feedback from products, to then communicate what everyone gets from it, so that way, when the prospect gets the salesperson, it’s the salespersons job to unpack those little things, because those little things are going to be the reason why they don’t cancel in a year.” – Duane Dufault
People / Resources Mentioned:
- Metric Manager Playbook: https://themetricmanager.com
Connect with Duane Dufault:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duanedufault/
- Email: [email protected]
- Website: https://www.duanedufault.com/
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Duane Dufault
Just make it easy, seriously. The easier you can make it for people to figure out the pricing on your product, the easier it is for them to buy. Simple.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the challenging relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Today, our guest is Duane Dufault. And here are three things you’d want to learn about Duane before we start.
He is currently a Fractional CRO, and I think he just changed his title, because he was a Fractional VP of Sales. We’ll talk to him about that. And he has finished Ironman races and is a dad of four daughters, so you may as well call him Superman.
Welcome, Duane.
Duane Dufault
Great intro. Yeah, it’s interesting. The fractional role always gets the eyebrow raise and interesting questions, that’s for sure, but the dad of four daughters, that one’s a story for days.
Mark Stiving
Oh my gosh.
So, I always start with ‘how did you get into pricing?’ but you aren’t in pricing. So, how did you get interested in pricing? What’s pricing have to do with your role?
Duane Dufault
Oddly enough, pricing is, I mean, for sales and revenue, it’s directly tied, but most people don’t think to ask the sales leaders or sales reps in an organization about how they feel about pricing; usually just hand it to him and say good luck.
And so, for me, one of the growth levers that I was looking at is like how was pricing structured for whatever product it is, because that’s a really big indicator on how people are going to buy from your company. If you’ve got hard to understand pricing, if you’ve got crazy- like, there’s been some companies that have pricing that you literally have to get on the phone with somebody to have them explain it to you, and even by then, by the end of the call, you’re like, “I still don’t know what I’m going to be charged.” That’s a problem. And that’s friction in the buying process that you need to remove.
And so, there’s a big part in sales and growth that has to do with pricing, but a lot of people really don’t see that connecting, unfortunately. So, I got in it, brought a focus to it by way of force, because no one is really paying attention to it at some of the organizations I’ve worked with.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. So, I think there’s about 100 follow up questions with what you just said.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
But what I do want to come back to is, what was the spark where you said, “Hey, I think sales really needs to focus on pricing”?
Duane Dufault
Two things. One, it came about when… SMB was where I kind of got my start in SAAS, and pricing before that was always interesting, because everyone always seemed to sell on discounts. That was the only value that they can bring. They’re like, “Oh, let’s go price high, and then we can give a discount of 50% whenever people would buy the product online”, right? The old school drop ship mentality where you run a Facebook ad, where you have the pricing and you slash the pricing – that was the way a lot of people looked at pricing. But in SAAS, you can’t really afford to discount heavily because of the long trail revenue you get from it.
And so, in the SMB world, we had a good problem where there wasn’t any friction in the buying process, because the product was like $3 per user, but as we started adding more and more functionality, there was a lot of people just automatically opting into the extra features because it didn’t cost anymore. And so, we just ran an experiment. As we ran an experiment, these 10% of new trials are going to get shown X price, and the rest of them will show the old pricing, and there was literally no hiccup in conversion. None. So, like, “Oh, okay. Let’s see what else we can do. Let’s just change all the pricing to $5 a user and see what happens.” Nothing. I think conversion dropped by like a 10th of a percent. It’s like, “Okay.”
There’s a huge lever here. When you’re onboarding 100 customers in the SMB world and you jumped the price from $3 to $5, your growth looks crazy in that month when you’re looking over the different metrics. And so, we let that sit for a little bit, and then we came back to the drawing table three months later and said, “Where’s our users?” Like, “What are they doing inside of the app? And can we charge extra for it?” And so then, we’re like, “Alright, let’s create a different tier.”
“Okay. So, we have $5 for the basic service set of features, and then these things provide more value to our larger customers. Let’s just, you know, gate it, feature gate it, and charge these one $7. No hiccup in conversion.”
And that’s how we started getting to a certain point. So, we would run pricing tests all the time to see what would happen to conversions, what would happen to leads that were coming in, things of that nature. And so, that became a fascination for me. When should we start looking at pricing? What are the indicators that say we’re priced ourselves out of the market? What are the indicators that say we need to charge more? Those types of things.
And so, every six months or so, whether it’s a client of mine or a company I’m at, I’m going to look at pricing. I’m going to look at what’s been the conversion metrics over the last six months to make sure that (1) we’re still relevant in the market amongst competitors, and then (2) we’re charging enough money to where people take it seriously, but don’t undercut ourselves, if that kind of answers your question.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. And I will say that (a) I agree with every single thing you just said. I thought it was a fantastic story, but (b) it sounded to me like you’re describing product management, not sales.
Duane Dufault
Yep. And so, I used to not know the difference between product and engineering. It was just a world I wasn’t involved in until I met like a true product manager, someone that talked to customers, took their feedback, and did testing. And then, him and I talked about the work that we were doing with pricing and he was like, “Where’s all this data?” And so, I showed him all the data in the CRM, because I had everything built in the CRM, because product, to that company, was engineering. And when this person came on board, showed him all of the metrics, all of the usage data and all that stuff, and he just ate it up.
And so, I realized that product marketing and a good sales process are like two sides of the same point. It’s like sales and marketing, but like, a good sales process and product marketing is so closely tied, because the questions that a good product marketer asks are a lot of the same ones you get from a sales conversation, a discovery process, and they take them down the same path.
And so, product marketing is fascinating from my perspective, because you need to have a certain perspective on customer engagement and usage to understand how to shape and evolve both the product, the customer journey, and what they pay for the product.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think that’s spot on. And I usually think of product marketing, we’ll say, and sales in the following way. We have marketing companies to do programs that are targeted at many, many different customers at the same time, and we have salespeople to focus on one customer at a time. And that’s the big difference between the two.
Duane Dufault
Yeah. So, in my experience with that, when you have… you got to have the consistency throughout the entire buyer’s journey. When you have a marketing team that has a certain perspective and then a sales team and then a product team, you don’t have any consistency and feedback in the journey; you don’t have a consistent flow of data.
And so, if you have a marketing team that’s doing mass general messaging, but then you have a sales team that’s highly focused on specific verticals, (1) I can just feel the low lead count, and (2) I can feel the frustration from the sales rep, because I’ve seen a lot of corporate type companies have this, where sales reps aren’t fully educated on other verticals, be able to do a proper discovery.
I like it the other way around. I like to have a niche, very specifically targeted marketing messaging that comes from the product team.
So, the product team figures out how people are using it, what are the roadblocks that are happening, what are the success, like what success are people having early in the app based on the vertical, and they get that to marketing, and marketing creates messaging around that, three to four specific verticals. But then the sales team, they’re like deep generalists. They understand the nuances between the verticals, they know how to cross-reference and do a cross discovery process in that, so they can help close and really usher in the best type of customer. The best type of customer understands something new about their problem and how your product’s going to fix it. And you can’t do that if you’re just linear focused sales process, if that makes sense. Like, you can’t pull from other backgrounds to help people solve problems, because not every business is the same. They may be in a vertical, but a business may operate completely different. And if you’ve got a sales rep that’s very, very focused and narrow-minded on one specific area, they can’t pull from other experiences. And so, I kind of, I like to see the inverse of what you were saying.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Believe it or not, we’re actually saying the same thing. I think that you slightly misunderstood what I was saying.
Duane Dufault
Oh, sorry.
Mark Stiving
No worries. Because what I just heard you say I dearly loved and that is I want my salespeople to be talking to multiple different market segments because it gets them more broad.
Duane Dufault
Okay. Yeah.
Mark Stiving
It’s easier for them to understand problems when they go find them or recognize that there are major problems in some companies that they may not have seen before.
Duane Dufault
Gotcha.
Mark Stiving
I think that’s brilliant.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
But I would say the following. Every time marketing does something, whether it’s a program or not, they’re targeting many customers. It could be in a single market segment, but it’s many customers.
Duane Dufault
Gotcha. Okay.
Mark Stiving
Every time sales does something, they’re talking to a single customer.
Duane Dufault
Gotcha. Yep, that makes more sense. It has added some clarity on what you said. It’s reiterated the same thing. And hey, there you go.
Mark Stiving
Right, but it was brilliant.
Hey, so one of the things that I always struggle with, and I just want to hear your thoughts.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
Salespeople tend to underprice if we give them pricing authority. What do you do about that?
Duane Dufault
That’s tough because all I want to say is teach your reps how to unpack value – not add value, to unpack value, because anywhere you go, you can ask for a discount, most likely get it. The whole adage of “Let me go ask my manager” is fake. Every salesperson has a floor they can go to no matter what company you’re at. Some companies will authorize up to 75%, depending because they understand the metrics on the back end. But that’s not good for the reputation of the company, because then you get referrals, and people are known- that company gets known for discounts.
So, from my perspective, if you give reps pricing flexibility, it’s great. The goal is to empower them to know that they can if they really need to. But on the other end of that…
Mark Stiving
Pause for just a second.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
So, there’s huge advantages to giving reps authority, right?
Duane Dufault
Yes.
Mark Stiving
It speeds up the deal flow. Theoretically, the rep is closer to the customer and better knows what the willingness to pay is, and so they could capture that willingness to pay.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
And there’s great advantages to doing this.
Duane Dufault
So, when you say pricing flexibility, what do you mean?
Mark Stiving
Well, let’s just say, I’m going to give a salesperson the ability or the authority to discount the 20% without going inside.
Duane Dufault
Okay. And that’s fine. I think what that does is it gives salespeople confidence, going into a sale, as long as they’re, like, value prop isn’t pricing. Because then, what I’ve seen that cause is when the sales rep leads with pricing as the value, then every interaction with that specific customer starts to be about pricing. Every renewal, whether it’s quarterly, by annually, and whatever the conversation, every conversation tends to be around what they’re paying for the product, rather than what problem the product is solving for.
And so, I do like giving sales reps the flexibility on pricing, but it’s up to the sales leader to teach them how to not use it if they don’t have to. Does that answer your question?
Mark Stiving
It does. I just don’t see it happen very often.
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Mark Stiving
I think in companies where you give salespeople some level of discount of 30, whatever it is, so let’s stick with 20%, you end up with a whole lot of 20% discounts.
Duane Dufault
Oh, yeah. It’s because it’s scalable. You can scale a sales team training and scale a value prop when you hand them something like that. The part that is ultimately effective to not have to worry about discounts doesn’t fit the normal definition of scaling. You have to spend time with the customer to understand their specific needs, build their benefits for what the product is going to solve. And so, once the benefit for your solution outweighs the pricing, you don’t have to worry about it. Like, when you do a really good discovery process with a prospect and help them get clarity around their problem and then connect those problems to your solution, then pricing isn’t part of the conversation. But most of the time, when you give reps the pricing flexibility, that’s their knee-jerk reaction. It’s like, “Oh, we can give you X%.” And then they lead with that, and then that just becomes a problem throughout the whole cycle, the customer journey, and all that stuff.
Yes, I do believe that it should be there so reps don’t have to delay the buying process, to undercut a competitor if they need to, but it’s really up to the sales leader who’s teaching them how to get better in their role to teach them how to not use it if they don’t need to.
Mark Stiving
I got to say I love a lot of what you’re saying. Okay, I love everything that you’re saying, but there’s some things that truly resonate with me. And you use the sentence a few seconds ago, a few minutes ago that I thought was a fabulous sentence, and it implies that you’ve had different experiences. And so, the sentence you said that I loved was “salespeople need to unpack value…”
Duane Dufault
Yep.
Mark Stiving
“…not create value.”
Duane Dufault
Yep.
Mark Stiving
And so, unpack that. Unpack that for me.
Duane Dufault
“Help me understand.”
Because so many times, I see marketing campaigns talk about features, as if buyers care about it. It’s the old cliché thing of people don’t want to shovel, they want a hole, but they don’t know they want a hole until you help them understand what the hole is for, right? Because in reality, they want shade from the tree that’s going to go in the hole. And so, you can’t tell them, they need shade until you help them understand what the shade is for. And so basically, you have to get them to verbalize their problem, make it real and known, because if they don’t, then it doesn’t exist; they’re not going to remember it. But if you come into your discovery process with a deck that just has a whole bunch of bullets of stuff that came from the marketing page, that’s not a value to them. They only find it valuable when they find it valuable, and it’s only valuable when it solves a problem, and you can’t solve a problem until you ask him what those problems are.
And so, you unpack value by helping them (1) get clarity around their problems, and then (2) connect your solution to that problem. And then, they see the value. You can’t just walk up and say, “Hey, you like this,” because that’s what most sales processes do. They just show up to a conversation, and they just shove a bunch of information in front of a prospect, and say, “Cool. Buy now.” And it’s like, people wonder why entry level SDRs have a problem creating opportunities because they still use BANT, or they don’t train their people how to be genuinely interested in the prospect, to help them understand the problem in that whole process.
And so, the biggest difference there like I said is you care about their problem and you help them see that, and then connect it to your solution. And the other side of it – of adding value – is you assume what they find valuable.
And so, big differences there from my perspective.
Mark Stiving
Yes. And so, like to use the word ‘show up’ and ‘throw up’.
Duane Dufault
Yes, very much.
Mark Stiving
And in fact- by the way, I was a salesperson really early in my career, and I sucked so badly. Oh my gosh.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
But one of the things I can remember doing as clear as day is describing my product, looking into your eyes, hoping you smile or say, “Oh my gosh, that’s important.”
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
And it’s just like it never is.
Duane Dufault
Yeah, it’s because there’s so many assumptions being made in the traditional sales process. It doesn’t even… The issue that happens is, let’s say, one of your “value props” actually is valuable to the customer, but since they didn’t tell you, you assumed they had a problem. Now, there’s like an anger wall of like, “I’ve been accused of having some problem” even though you may be right. It’s like a marriage, right? You can’t tell your wife that there’s an issue. She has to be the one to tell you. It’s the same thing. And so, there’s a subconscious trigger when you’re right about an assumption, unless the person you’re selling to is super self-aware.
But it doesn’t matter if it’s right. It’s the fact that you came in and told them what their value is. And you have to get them to talk about it. It’s the only way for them to make the connection on their own, which is where the cliché term comes from, that they don’t buy, they sell themselves, or whatever. They have to get themselves to that end.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, they don’t want to be sold. They want to buy.
Duane Dufault
Yes, that’s the one.
Mark Stiving
Right?
Duane Dufault
Gosh.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, nice.
Okay. So, a lot of what we talked about in terms of helping our salespeople understand how to find value at the customer or help the customer understand the value, this is everything that I would call a “will I” decision.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
We’re talking about the inherent value of the product. Am I going to buy a product in your category? Am I going to buy a shovel using the example you used earlier? But what it doesn’t talk about is why is my shovel better than my competitor’s shovel? Where does that come into the sales process from your perspective?
Duane Dufault
Discovery, because you have to figure out what that specific buyer’s needs are.
So, shovels are a great example because I own a ton of them. Because one has a cool handle, so my kids don’t need to wear gloves when they use it. I have a wooden one where I wear gloves, but then they’re ones with special points on them. There’s ones with little hooks, shoe things, so that way, you know.
And so, all shovels will get you to the same endpoint. Most types of software are 90% similar. You want to CRM? Great. There’s 100 of them out there, and most of them do 80-90% of the same thing. But it’s a difference in those details that really make a difference.
And so, if you have a good discovery process that’s focused on the needs of the buyer, you’re going to help them figure out what those differences are, because people buy on an emotional trigger, because something is exciting, and then churn or cancellation happens when they find those little things that don’t meet up with what they really want to do.
And so, in the sales process and marketing, marketing is there to take feedback from products, to then communicate what everyone gets from it, so that way, when the prospect gets the salesperson, it’s the salespersons job to unpack those little things, because those little things are going to be the reason why they don’t cancel in a year.
And so, use the reference of the shovel. There are shovels I don’t use. They shape the same, cost the same, but there’s just a little bit of difference between a couple of them that really make an impact for when I’m digging that hole. Hopefully that answers the question.
Mark Stiving
Yes, it does.
So, one of the things I like to say when I’m talking to salespeople or companies about this is if you go through the act of determining how much value there is to owning a shovel, you really want the shade, and I help you as a client get to that point, I’ve actually built a huge competitive advantage
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
Because I built this rapport and trust with my client. So now, if there’s not a huge difference between my product and a competitor’s product, I at least have the advantage now.
Duane Dufault
Oh, of course.
There was a company that I was with for three and a half years. I helped them go from 2 million to 11 million in ARR in three and a half years with Bootstrap. And then they were part of a giant merger on October of ‘21. And they were part of a marketplace that was saturated. There was a ton of them. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback we got in testimonials, reviews, whatever you call it was the human element. They loved our teams. We would have people leave because some marketing campaign described a competitor in such a way that was so compelling, and they’re like, “Oh, that’s what we need,” and then they go there, and they’re like, “Oh, well, we can’t get ahold anybody for six weeks. This is ridiculous” or “It doesn’t seem like someone on the other end of the phone actually knows what we’re doing.”
And so, it’s that little element that really makes a big difference. When the sales team, support team, the success team really understands the differences, that the business, the buyer, can they genuinely give a damn for lack of a better world – that’s what really makes a difference in like, if you have apples to apples, the same shovel, but it’s about the person you’re buying it from at the end of the day.
Mark Stiving
Yes. So, I want you to say instead of saying the differences in the product, I just want you to say everybody in the company understands value.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
How our customers are getting value.
Duane Dufault
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
When we can do that, it changes the game.
Duane Dufault
Yeah. When the team in place understands that, there’s such an elevated atmosphere in the company. On all departments, everyone gets it. You don’t have to repeat anything. It just seems to click in a lot of different ways.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. I would call that a culture of value.
Duane Dufault
There you go. I like that.
Mark Stiving
Nice. Thanks, Duane. Hey, thanks for giving me that one.
Before I go to my last question, I was going to ask you this at the very beginning, but we jumped in so fast that it didn’t get there.
So, in your mind, what’s the difference between a CRO and a VP of Sales?
Duane Dufault
Nothing.
So, the main difference between a VP and a CRO from what I’ve seen is the VP of Sales typically focuses on new revenue. They really focus on channel sales, referral, marketing, assisting referral marketing, and they really focus on top funnel revenue. When you have a CRO, they oversee the entire revenue operation, where they have a hand in like expansion revenue, the upgrades, they oversee churn, so they basically manage the entire revenue process from start to end. They typically watch twice the amount of metrics that you would as a new sales leader, where you do care about throughput of the funnel, making sure that marketing and product are paying attention to what’s generating the highest revenue, but then could potentially be generating the highest churn, you know. And so, they’re much more involved in the lifetime of the customer, rather than just the first few weeks of the trial.
So, biggest difference there is new revenue vs. all the revenue.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. It almost sounds like; I would call it COO in the following sense. Customer success drives CRO business, right? It drives revenue. New products drive revenue. Marketing drives revenue.
Duane Dufault
Yep.
Mark Stiving
And so, it feels like CRO would run the entire company.
Duane Dufault
Interesting enough. That’s where CRO came from. It was the old like COO, Chief Operating Officer, kind of turned into the CRO over the last half a decade, just from the different things it was starting to oversee.
I remember meeting- I remember working for my first year and always seeing Ryan, and he’s still a good friend of mine. And I remember asking him like what he does. He’s like, “I manage all the revenue stuff.” That was a description to me. “Oh, okay.”
And so, now, when I first started seeing the CRO title, I’m like, “Oh, that’s just the COO, just maybe less HR.”
Mark Stiving
Right.
Duane Dufault
But yeah, I completely agree.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. You can imagine a few departments like HR and accounting that probably don’t fit under that, but yeah, cool.
Okay, we do have to get to the last question.
Duane Dufault
Yep.
Mark Stiving
What’s one piece of pricing advice you’d give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Duane Dufault
Make it easy for people to buy. Simple. Just simplify your pricing.
Mark Stiving
Oh. I thought you were going to stop there. I was going to say that’s the fewest words you said all day.
Duane Dufault
Just make it easy, seriously. The easier you can make it for people to figure out the pricing on your product, the easier it is for them to buy. Simple.
Mark Stiving
Yeah, I think that’s so true. The advice I often give companies – in fact, I give every company this, but I don’t know that we can always implement it – and that is figure out how to create good, better, best inside market segments because it just simplifies customers’ decisions.
Duane Dufault
It makes it easy for sales to happen. Do a way with the need to create requests for proposals, and like all these things. And plus, it helps sales team figure out their commission plans. It’s super helpful. But you just got to make it easier for people to spend money with you.
Mark Stiving
Nice.
Duane, this has just been fabulous. Thank you so much for your time. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Duane Dufault
I’m most active on LinkedIn. I post a lot of different things about sales leadership management on there. And then, you can find me at themetricmanager.com which is where I give out some free playbooks on how to manage sales teams using data.
Mark Stiving
Alright. Episode 165 is all done. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this, would you please leave us a rating and a review? And finally, if you have any questions or comments about the podcast or pricing in general, feel free to email me: [email protected].
Now, go make an impact.
