Ep100: Pricing Strategically through Great Product Management with Rebecca Kalogeris

 

Rebecca Kalogeris is the Vice President of Marketing & Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute. She has a contagious passion for telling brand stories and driving revenue. A true sales partner with the ability to quickly and effectively delve into markets and products, develop brand messaging, and build programs and teams that deliver results.  

She has a proven track record of delivering rapid revenue growth – One of Kapost’s “Top 50 Product Marketers to Follow” – Passionate builder of teams, processes and infrastructure to meet organizational goals. She is also host of a popular weekly product management and marketing podcast. 

In this episode, Rebecca talks about the new Product Design course Pragmatic offers in partnership with the founding instructors of Cooper Education. She relates the importance of sales teams having the belief in the price so that they can be confident to go out there and win your price. She also highlights on who should own Pricing in the company as it relates to who creates value for people’s willingness to buy. 

 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

  • Find out how and when to decide the price 
  • Learn about how deeply tied product management is to Pricing and see the depth of the connection and how powerful it can be 
  • Find out what you can do to affect customers’ willingness to pay 

 

I would invest in more timein explaining your price to sales. 

– Rebecca Kalogeris 

 

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Topics Covered:

01:28 – How Rebecca got into Pricing accidentally 

02:45 – Why she didn’t get things right in the early part of her pricing career 

05:11 – Pragmatic DNA – What’s the problem 

06:19 – Who should own Pricing 

06:46 – Which particular department should Pricing reside in the company 

08:03 – Why Product Management and Product Marketing should own Pricing 

09:52 – Is Product Marketing a better place to put Pricing 

10:55 – Her thoughts on product marketers being smarter than product managers 

11:43 – Why does Pragmatic not incorporating good, better, best Pricing 

16:16 – What Pragmatic is spending time on for a wider tool belt of items to create good, better, best Pricing 

17:18 – Founding instructors from Cooper education partnering with Pragmatic for a Product Design Course 

22:42 – Why product designers need to have a good understanding of the business in both the market and financial context 

23:25 – When to decide what the price would be 

24:32 – What to consider before building a solution 

25:21 – What can any member of the company do to affect someone’s willingness to pay 

26:41 – Everyone in the company should create value and not destroy it 

 

Key Takeaways:

“Once you start to talk to the rest of the organization about why that is how you price, it’s a big learning curve for all those departments you interact with, but it makes you think about everything differently. At the end of the day, that’s where the money comes in. And to be able to tie those things together, I think, excites everybody and also kind of coordinates everybody around the same north star.” – Rebecca Kalogeris  

“Product Management, Product Marketing, certainly we’ve seen Pricing and pricing strategists that come in more and more where it’s an in-piece. I would not put that Pricing in Sales. And I would not put that Pricing in Finance. I think Finance is too far removed from the market, that’s not their role. And Sales is too tied to individual customers versus the market to see some of those bigger trends.” – Rebecca Kalogeris  

“I think designers get a much better understanding of the market. But the other thing that designers need is a really good understanding of the business because sometimes they’re isolated from that in a way that product isn’t.” – Rebecca Kalogeris  

“I would say that you should decide what the price is going to be before you decide if you’re actually going to build it.” – Rebecca Kalogeris 

“What can you do as any member of that company to affect someone’s willingness to pay and I think I was just reading a big study about customer loyalty and satisfaction, and sort of how important that literally, the experience they have in the purchase process to the experience they have what they call customer service, all really affect someone’s willingness to pay.” – Rebecca Kalogeris 

 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

 

Connect with Rebecca Kalogeris:

 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

  • Email: mark@impactpricing.com
  • LinkedIn

 

Full Interview Transcript  

(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.) 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

I would invest in more time…in explaining your price to sales. 

[Intro] 

Mark Stiving   

Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss Pricing, value, and the pragmatic relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Today is the hundredth episode of the Impact Pricing Podcast. And I have to tell you; I am so thrilled that our guest today is Rebecca Kalogeris. Here are three things you want to know about Rebecca before we start. First and foremost, she is a very good friend of mine; I had the pleasure of working with her for several years. She is the VP of Marketing and Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute. And you should know, I think she gets a new title every year, maybe twice a year. And she worked very closely with me at Pragmatic when we launched the price class there. And it was a hoot. So welcome, Rebecca. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Mark, I’m so excited to be here for your hundredth episode, too. That’s awesome! 

Mark Stiving   

I know. I actually planned it that way because I wanted you here for that. So, it’s so good. Normally, I asked the first question, how did you get into Pricing? So, I’m just going to pretend like you’re in Pricing and ask you how you got into Pricing? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Honestly, I think most people with product management or product marketing background by accident, right? Like at some point, you realize you have a product, and you need a price, right. And I think early on in your career, often, you know, you’re sort of inherited a price as you get further up. And as you’re working with new products that come to launch, you have to not only come up with the price, but then you have to sell the price not just to the market, but internally. And I realized when I met my good friend, Mark said, that I had done a lot of that wrong. But I found the whole process really, really interesting. And really, the way that we teach it and the way that you brought us is, it’s really a combination of, you know, the market-driven ideas that we think of as product management, and then pricing and just taking that philosophy into the pricing spot. So, I got into it by accident, wasn’t very good at it. Gotten better at it. Thanks to Mark and continue to evolve it and improve because I think there’s so much power when you get it right. 

Mark Stiving   

Oh my god, that was a great advertisement. Thank you. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

I’d say you get it right, Mark.  

Mark Stiving   

Why do you think you did it wrong? And I don’t mean that to be derogatory at all. I mean it to be, why did people not understand it? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

It’s a great question. And I think part of it is its price and it’s a number. And so, you look for a formula, right? And there are certainly formulas and numbers. There’s part of that, but you want it to be an answer like you want it to be, well, obviously, the price is the same as two plus two equals four. And so, you look at sort of equations that can get you there. And unfortunately, the equations you have, where you own sort of all the numbers and variables are either like, this is how much it costs, which is not the right answer, just if you ever take anything from Mark, that is not the right answer. I’m saying that’s an easy one that people tend to go towards. Or you look at your competitors, right, because those are kind of the things that they feel solid, and it feels like good bumpers that you can go against. And I think this sort of philosophical is not quite the right word. But the sort of market understanding and that sort of qualitative part that goes with the quantitative part is just not something people think about. And so, I think A, thinking about it, and B, how do you combine the two, because again, it still needs to be a number, it still needs to make financial sense. And you still need to present it like this is why this is a good number for us as an organization and the right number in the market. And Finance won’t fire you. 

Mark Stiving   

Yeah, I love the answer that says, ‘In the end, it’s a number, which means we have to pick a number.’ ‘Shouldn’t there have been a formula to get us here?’ And so now we got to defend it somehow or define it. And it’s challenging to do that if we’re going to do touchy-feely qualitative stuff all around it. Now, I’m going to be super honest or straightforward, too. When I first went to Pragmatic, I didn’t know what product managers did. And I found it absolutely fascinating as I learn more and more about product management. And then I wanted to try to tie Pricing back to product management. And this is a really fascinating journey because I still don’t know how the Pragmatic has done it well, no offense, right? But the idea of going from what’s the problem to how much value is there to solving that problem to communicating that value to the marketplace to charging for that value? I find that the whole process is just incredibly powerful. And I never would have thought of it if I hadn’t worked at pragmatic and come back to what’s the problem? Right, which is where you guys always start from? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

And it’s funny because I would agree on the other side, like, you know, that is the DNA of pragmatic, what’s the problem? And I don’t think that’s the sort of, what’s the right word? I don’t think we really understood how that tied to Pricing until we partnered with you, right? We would talk about value-based pricing, and you kind of knew it, but it hadn’t like gotten to the depth where you really see that connection and how powerful it can be. And once you do, I think it’s amazing. And once you start to talk to the rest of the organization about why you price, it’s a big learning curve for all those departments you interact with, but it makes you think about everything differently. If what I can price is based on the problems I’m solving, making sure I’m solving the right ones. And then actually doing it well is critical to every part of the organization. Because at the end of the day, that’s where the money comes in. And to be able to tie those things together, I think, excites everybody and also kind of coordinates everybody around the same north star.  

Mark Stiving   

Yeah, I thought that what you guys have done is just incredible. Absolutely. So now that you’ve been exposed to so many different departments, from your perspective, who should own Pricing? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Well, I would say the person who owns Pricing is the one who can answer that question of willingness to pay, right? What is the market’s willingness to pay to solve that problem? Who can answer that question is the right person, and it‘s not an individual customer. It’s not what it costs, but the person who has the market data and the market access to answer who should own it. 

Mark Stiving   

Okay, and give us some titles. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

So, Product Management, Product Marketing, certainly we’ve seen Pricing and pricing strategists that come in more and more where it’s an in-piece. I would not be popular with some of my friends and co-workers. But I would not put that Pricing in Sales. And I would not put that Pricing in Finance. I think Finance is too far removed from the market. That’s not their role, and Sales is too tied to individual customers versus the market to see some of those bigger trends. They’re both big influencers, right? And there’s data you need from those two pieces. But I think those are the titles. I am definitely biased, though. So, we can all be. 

Mark Stiving   

Well, I have to say, in all honesty, my opinion is probably exactly the same as yours, where I think Product Management and Product Marketing, they probably are the best place to own Pricing in the sense that they see the market’s willingness to pay, they see that better than anyone else. Maybe a salesperson sees it better, but a salesperson has a bias that says, ‘Hey, I’m trying to close the deal, I’m going to do whatever I can.’ And so maybe they’re less appropriate to own the price setting. In fact, I can almost guarantee you, they’re less appropriate to own the price setting. But I love product management and product marketing answers. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

And if I can just go here, and this is another step that I’m not sure every, all organizations have gotten to the maturity level of. But the other advantage to that team owning price is the depth at which price should be tied to a product, right, in terms of not just what I should be in this business, right? But even in using it to determine what features, how to do bundles, how to package different things. I think packaging and pricing are something, Mark, that you really opened my eyes to. It is definitely an underused lever. But it’s one of the reasons again, that Product and Pricing, they’re not two separate pieces. In many ways, they are part of a solo offering; how I package it, how I price it, and what I’m offering should be thought of as a kind of, you know, three legs to the same stool. 

Mark Stiving   

I could not agree more. Right? Pricing and packaging go so closely together. And in that vein, Product Management versus Product Marketing, let me give you my opinion for just a second. And then you tell me how I’m totally off base or… 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

One of my favorite things to do.  

Mark Stiving 

Yes, exactly. In the world of non-subscription products, where I’m going to build a new product, and I’m going to build another product, and I’m going to build another product. And we have to build; we should be building good, better, best type offerings. It makes a ton of sense for me for Product Management to own Pricing, because they also own all that packaging, right? What products are we going to go build next? In the world of subscription, it feels a lot to me, like Product Marketing is more responsible for tweaking the features to create the right good, better, best packages so we can get people to buy up in the marketplace. And in that case, it almost feels like Product Marketing is a better place to put Pricing. Now, what do you think? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

So, I think it’s a good question, and I think it probably to your point depends on the company. I do think, though, if you think about product marketing as being focused on the buyer side, right, and understanding the buyers. Pricing is closer to that in understanding the users. Right? If I’m focusing on building the right, not only features but I want to build for users and I want to market to buyers, and Pricing is really much more external there. That being said, in some organizations, and I think we’re seeing a big shift to where product marketing is becoming more strategic and elevated, and those organizations feel like a really natural fit to me. Because again, I’m focused on sort of the products going off the shelf, working with sales, who I’m going to need to bring on board with Pricing, and the buyers. So, if I’ve got a good sophisticated product marketing group, that is my first choice on it. I’m biased in this area.  

Mark Stiving   

I’m sure product marketers are much smarter than product managers, period. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

We’re better looking, too. I do think it is a younger profession, not younger as in the people doing it. But as an, it’s newer, and maybe less understood in a lot of organizations, and sometimes less mature. But we have definitely seen that shift and become more and more mature. 

Mark Stiving   

Yeah, so we taught good, better, best in the class, in the price class a lot. I am a huge, huge fan of good, better best. I try to get every company I work with to think about it, if not implemented. And yet Pragmatic, doesn’t have good, better, best Pricing. Besides blaming me, what good reasons do we have? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Yeah, it’s a really good question. And you and I have talked about this before. So, it’s not a net new piece. But I’m also a big fan of good, better, best, and the ability for that to go through. I think, you know, we can talk about lots of different things, right? Some systems aspects are required, right, to do good, better, past it requires different types of systems in different places. So, I can give all those excuses in the world. And I don’t want to, but I think it’s finding the right; I think there is a systems component. But I also think really nailing the right variables for that good, better, best option is harder than you think. Right? I can give you a good, better, best today. I do it to some extent, right? You buy foundations versus foundation focus, or you buy all six. You get different Pricing, you get different things, right, all six courses, in a way, that’s good, better, best. But I think a good, better, best has pinpointed the factors that are valuable to some and not others and focus the variations on that. And that part we continually kind of iterate on to see we know; some are looking for more hands-on touch after the classes. Right? And, and so there’s some of that, that we start to suss out of what really should make that variable. Still, we just have not nailed that combination yet, or a combination that allows us also to deliver those options at scale. Right? I could say you could go to the course and get office hours with someone online for the course. Or you could be like, have an instructor embedded with you for, you know, two weeks in your work or whatever the case may be. But I’m not sure. Again, the variations there the willingness to pay that’s tied to versus whether it’s a sort of buying criteria versus using criteria and the scalability of which all those variables make it a more complex construct. It sounds easy, but it’s not necessarily. 

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Mark Stiving   

While people who have software packages with 100 different features, it turns out that’s a little bit easier to figure this out. And when you only have a few products or a few features, it’s really challenging. To be fair, I can tell you that I’ve worked with Rebecca and the team to figure out how to build good, better, best, and we did not succeed very well. And I think the big part of the reason was that we only had six courses when I was there, that’s pretty much the only thing we sold. And it didn’t make sense to bundle them into packages in the way that you described, where we could say, here’s the package for product managers and product marketers are willing to pay more. So, we’re going to charge to make this package for product marketers. And so, it just didn’t feel right; it didn’t fit at any point in time. But as I’ve watched you guys since I’ve left, I have a feeling you’re going to come up with some good, better, best packages someday in the near future because you keep adding more capability, more products, more features. I love the pack; you guys have an alumni community now that allows you to touch customers after they’ve taken courses; you do office hours. So, I think there’s a lot of things that you’ve added that pretty soon you’ll have the right mix that you can say, ‘Oh, this is what a customer who’s scraping to get into our category needs.’ And then here’s what the customer that is willing to pay anything to solve these problems. And then here’s what most people are going to want. And I think you’ll be able to figure that out. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

That’s the goal with this sort of expanding product portfolio. And at the same time, as we’ve done that, we’re spending some time now sorting the customer experience and the customer journey to get a good idea of those segments you talked about there. And what their past looks like and how they differ. So, we’ve got a good understanding now that I have a wider tool belt of items. What are the combinations that make sense? And what is a really clear understanding of what those different segments or personas are and what they need? 

Mark Stiving   

Yeah, and I think we never talked about this when I was there. But I think what you want to do is start with the customers who are willing to pay us the absolute most, right, they’ve got the biggest problems, what is it that we could deliver to them, that would make them happy, so they would pay us a lot? And then we start taking things away as people are willing to pay us less? And yeah, I think you guys are definitely on the right track. Speaking of which, tell me about the new design course that you guys did. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Yes. And I’m very, very excited about this course. So, you know, I think product design is something that we do with so much software and many tech companies. Particularly in the B2C space, it’s always been huge. You expect how your product works. In the B2B space, we’ve been talking about this for a long time, right? That the consumer’s expectation is shifting. Even in a B2B product, I expect a user interface; I expect a level of intuitiveness and innovation to get out of my B2C product. So, we’ve been talking about that for a long time. That doesn’t mean that a lot of these larger organizations, in particular, have been able to make that shift. And what often happens is they’ll do something like, okay, we’re going to shift to be design thinking, and they come in, and they pay consultants, and they do a bunch of stuff. And they get this philosophy, but how does that philosophy interact with other pieces? And how does it like when your boots hit the road? And you actually have to do that? What is that? So, all of that is a problem that we have definitely seen in the space and things we’ve heard from our customers and how they’re trying to integrate those two. At the same time, for those who know, The Inmates are Running the Asylum, if you’ve heard of Alan Cooper, just sort of the godfather of personas and UX. He had a company that was purchased. And then they sort of dissolved with COVID, which was unfortunate, but it gave us an opportunity to bring some of those resources on board. So, we’re super excited to have two of the founding instructors from Cooper education coming to Pragmatic. They’ve done a couple of different things; the first and foremost is we’ve partnered them with our product management expertise to really hone in on that intersection. Because they’re both, there are so much similarities between the goals, right, in terms of both really focused on the market, when I call it the market, one calls it the user right, really focused on solving problems or reaching goals. So, there’s so much synergy in between what they’re trying to do and the approach they take. And yet there’s so much tension in the organizations we work with. Right? They’re speaking a different language. They go at it just a little bit differently enough. Sometimes, I think it’s not as it’s not the additive power of when they work together. So, the first thing we did was look at what is a course that we can dive into that talks about that intersection, really talks about how do you kind of move in and out between problem and solution and really iterate and kind of create the right kind of solutions, like, know where that problem but I need to find the most innovative way of tackling it. So that brand new course I just have like a week and a half ago. So, it’s looking really good. And we’re super excited about that. I think we officially announced it. Well, I think tomorrow which by the time this airs will be a couple weeks and then after that we’re working with them to figure out sort of a design practice. So, this is a course for product management, which is really where our history has been. But there is a need for designers and sort of leveling up their skills in the same way we do for product management, which we’ll be looking at with them in 2021. 

Mark Stiving   

First off, I love listening to and watching your excitement over that topic, it’s pretty cool. Back when I was teaching foundations, we would essentially teach the concept that says ‘Your Job is to define the problem. And then you get to throw it over the wall to this magic group called design. And their job is to figure out the solution’. Now we talked about a little bit of interaction that we would have with the designers. Is that changing now? Or is that still the same thought process? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

It’s the most black and white way of looking at it, right? Like, if you had to pick a primary owner on one side than the other, some of that definitely stays the same. But it turns out in that scenario; neither side is really happy, right? Because product management threw it over. But they’re not really because they’re going to pick it up again to work with the design. And they’re also kind of like, you know, this is my problem and my baby. I want to make sure we’re staying focused and that I don’t get a solution design that doesn’t match my audience or my persona or any of that, right. So, it’s not a good space for them. On the other hand, designers really want context, right? So, it’s actually really hard for them when they just get your market research outputs, right? And you have to have really good personas and really good sort of market research readouts for them to steal that same sort of context and understanding they get when they get to be part of the discovery process. So, they’d like to come up on the front of the wall, right? Whether it’s designing the problem, or if it’s just a sort of reframing, right? Like, you can say, hey, there’s a problem today where we really need to be able to, students need to know which courses to take to graduate, right? That’s a problem. It’s a good problem. But the designer really wants to pull that apart. And the more they can understand that in sort of a 3d version of what that means, the more innovative and out of the box solutions they can come up with. So, they want to kind of come up and play in front of the wall. And product management doesn’t want to be shut out afterward. So, I think we’re kind of exploring healthy ways for more connections and more iteration points in between. 

Mark Stiving   

That just makes so much sense. One of the other things I always taught, which I thought was funny. I was teaching product managers who’ve never done a market visit how to go do that. And I would say if you’re nervous, talk to your design team, because they probably do it today anyway, and they can help you. And so now we’ve got two different groups doing customer visits, wouldn’t it be great if we had a way to coordinate that? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Yes, I mean, such power in those spots when they come together, coming at it from different perspectives, but both really good pieces. If we can bring it together, then there’s much more; I think designers get a much better understanding of the market. But the other thing that designers need is a really good understanding of the business because sometimes they’re isolated from that in a way that product isn’t. So, I think there’s both the market context and the business context, which makes some solutions more or less attractive as an important part of coming up with the best solutions. 

Mark Stiving   

Yeah, nice! Okay, I’ve got to put you on the spot. Design market problems. When do we decide what the price is going to be? Oh, what 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Oh, what an excellent question! You should decide what the price will be before you decide if you’re going to build it. Right? That is the time to see if it makes sense. If you wait till the end and you find out you cannot price it to cover your costs, what that could do in that business, right? Understanding, willingness to pay is part of the decision process as to whether or not you should be in that business. If you should invest in that product, you invest in that feature. It also makes your business cases hex a lot easier. If you do this upfront, you’ve got real numbers and real and real cases back there. So, I would leave it at the beginning of the process. 

Mark Stiving   

Nice, and so by the way, I’m not saying I know the answer to this question. But it feels to me like we find the problem. We’re working with design to prototype or think about what solutions might be. And now we can guess its costs. And we can try to calculate what the customer is willing to pay if we solve this problem? And we could say, ‘Is this a feasible business or not?’ before we ever build the solution? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

That’s interesting. I think my gut would have put it before going too far down with design, right? Because it’s sort of like that business yea or nay? Do I want to spend any resources, but again, I think that was probably two sorts of linear thinking. Like, there’s not clear checkpoints like this. So, if you could have designed it earlier and you start to think about ways of solving it that you maybe wouldn’t have otherwise, right, where you would have said it could call it this, but I can’t possibly do it for that. They’re like, ‘Hey, can you just do it this way?’ I think that’s probably a good point of moving these solution concepts, not the build-outs, but conceptualizing how you’re going to do it earlier, because to your point that way… 

Mark Stiving   

I may be biased on this one, but I think everybody in the company should be thinking about willingness to pay. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

I would agree.  

Mark Stiving   

Excellent.  

Rebecca Kalogeris   

What can you do as any member of that company to affect someone’s willingness to pay and I think I was just reading a big study about customer loyalty and satisfaction, right, and sort of how important that so like, literally the experience they have in the purchase process to the experience they have what they call customer service, all affect someone’s willingness to pay? Typically, if you’ve got a subscription business where there’s this continual point. So, if you can get people to understand that it really can affect everything, because they can all have different ways of… 

Mark Stiving   

That is actually such an insightful comment. Because everybody in your company in some way, impacts how much your customer is willing to pay, how much they value your product. So, if you’re in accounting, and you mess up the invoice, guess what, people don’t want to do business with you; they’re willing to pay less.  

Rebecca Kalogeris   

How easy it was for you to find the product if you’re in the marketing side. Right? What was the sales process? I mean, the numbers were staggering at the connection that had nothing to do with the product features. And everything to do with that experience of which all of those is such key pieces. 

Mark Stiving 

Yeah, I think it’s a great concept that everybody should be thinking about or paying attention to is; everyone in your company either creates or destroys value? What are they doing? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Oh, my gosh, and if you have someone in your company destroying values, we need to get them out. 

Mark Stiving   

Rebecca, we are running out of time. Final question. What’s one piece of pricing advice you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business? 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

I would invest in more time. I would invest more time and explain your price to sales. And not explaining is that the calculation you came through but giving them that belief in the price related to everything else in there. And the confidence to go out there and not like to come in sort of like the dog was afraid it’s going to get hit, right? Like, own it and understand why this price makes sense. Because at the end of the day, right, we need sales guys. Every point they give us is a point towards profitability, so the more that we’re letting them own it and run with it, the better. 

Mark Stiving   

I love that answer. And one of my favorite things, salespeople have to be confident they can win at our prices. Yeah. And if they’re not, they won’t. 

Rebecca Kalogeris   

Yeah, and it’s our job to make sure they feel that way. 

Mark Stiving   

Absolutely beautiful. Rebecca, thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that? 

Rebecca Kalogeris  

Probably the best thing is LinkedIn, R Kalogeris, which is a terrible name to spell, but it’s own, no one else has it. There’s no other R Kalogeris in the whole world. So, you can find me there for sure. Or obviously, stop by pragmaticinstitute.com anytime. 

Mark Stiving   

And it’ll also be in the show notes so you’ll be able to find it pretty easily. Episode number 100 is all done. Please leave us a review. I’ve had a great time doing 100 of these. Jacobo at Wolters Kluwer, he said, Excellent resource: 

“Really interesting podcast for anyone interested in discovering and mastering the art of value. Mark makes it both didactical...

Mark doesn’t even know what that means.  

…and fun. And you can feel his passion and enthusiasm on it. Please keep it up with the good work.

Thank you, Jacobo, that was awesome. Don’t forget to join our free community at championsofvalue.com. You can find it at community.championsofvalue.com. That’s where we put out all of the free content that I publish, our memes, our blogs, our videos, our podcasts. If you have any questions or comments about this podcast or about Pricing in general, feel free to email me mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact! 

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