Leah Tharin brings B2B SaaS to the product-led growth retention light. Advising organizations to bring growth, product, marketing, and sales in line, scaling to move down or upmarket. She works in the operational details and not the hypothetical clouds with her clients.
In this episode, Leah explains the differences between product-led growth (PLG) and sales-led growth, highlighting the benefits of usage-limited freemiums in PLG strategies. She emphasizes the importance of focusing on core value and customer experience when designing freemiums. She advises on pricing strategies, recommending minimal price changes during the early stages and frequent experiments as the company matures.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Find detailed definitions of key business concepts like product-led growth (PLG) and sales-led growth (SLG) that offer valuable comparisons to help you understand their differences, as well as applications.
- Learn practical and actionable advice on pricing strategies, emphasizing the importance of initial pricing for early-stage companies and the need for frequent pricing experiments as the company grows.
- Deep dive into effective business practices, such as leveraging freemium models and understanding the importance of customer value in pricing strategies.
“If you cannot convince people to use your stuff for free, then I think you should not have any price on your product.”
– Leah Tharin
Topics Covered:
01:32 – Why she describe the relationship between pricing and value as stressful
03:09 – Defining a product-led growth
06:47 – Leah expanding the product-led growth definition to include interactive demos and automated marketing tools
08:49 – How companies adopt product-led growth to improve cost efficiency and compete with more agile, cost-effective competitors
11:22 – Sales-led growth defined
14:20 – What does a product-led growth focuses in getting into
20:02 – Understanding a Freemium product offer
24:10 – Why she prefers a Freemium model that is usage-limited
26:46 – An outcome-driven way of looking at the minimum viable product
29:31 – Leah’s best pricing advice
Key Takeaways:
“Traditionally we talk about product-led growth in the terms of trials, freemiums, getting something for free forever until you buy it, and so forth. But I also talk about it in the context of getting an interactive demo where you understand what they now do inside of this demo.” – Leah Tharin
“…what we try to do in product-led growth is exactly this. It’s not so much about how much the customer spends in the initial payment with us or like even the first couple of months, maybe even year. It is about the lifetime value, how fast we can escalate this of course as well because this is also a sign of customer value.” – Leah Tharin
“For commoditized markets, product-led growth, if it can be done, it’s not always the right thing, but definitely the choice that you have to make. In new verticals with extremely complicated integrations, we tend to be more sales-led for sure.” – Leah Tharin
People/Resources Mentioned:
- Netflix: https://www.netflix.com
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com
- Hubspot: https://www.hubspot.com
- Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com
Connect with Leah Tharin:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
- Website: https://www.leahtharin.com/
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Leah Tharin
If you cannot convince people to use your stuff for free, then I think you should not have any price on your product.
[Intro / Ad]
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the stressful relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving and our guest today is Leah Tharin. And here are three things you want to know about Leah before we start. She is an expert in product-led growth for scale-up companies. She’s advised many companies and PE firms on SaaS growth, and she’s currently interim chief product and growth officer at gotphoto.com. Welcome, Leah.
Leah Tharin
Thank you so much for having me, Mark. I was looking forward to this.
Mark Stiving
It should be fun. So tell me, I’ve never had anyone choose the word stressful when they say the relationship between pricing and value. Why did you choose stressful?
Leah Tharin
Because I feel like pricing discussions in general are a very important thing in any product lifecycle. I mean, what is pricing? For most of us, it is the end of the most important thing, right? Like you produce a product, you try to match it, you try to iron out its kinks, and then you charge something for it. And for some people it’s really stressful to do this because you usually not only do this in a vacuum, you have existing customers, you put some people off, excuse me for swearing, I hope it’s okay. Like it’s a stressful tension with the customers in some way, but it also is internally because we have this usual tension between sales as a silo and then product and so forth. And everybody has different misaligned interests when it comes to pricing. Should it be high enough? Should it be low? Where do we put it? And this is why I look at it as stressful and that’s why I see myself as the executive mom. That is just like calming down everybody in the organization and trying to find the best point to sell.
Mark Stiving
Okay. You have no idea how much I love the answer you just gave. By the way, it’s completely wrong, but I love it. It isn’t wrong in the sense that that’s exactly how companies behave, it’s just not how they should behave.
Leah Tharin
That is true.
Mark Stiving
So we think of price as the thing that happens at the very end. I think of price as something that should happen at the very beginning, right? What’s the value we’re delivering to our customers? So this is going to be a fun conversation. Since we’re going to talk about product-led growth, you’re an expert in that field and I have no clue what I’m really talking about other than how to ask questions. So what is product-led growth?
Leah Tharin
So the way that I’m thinking about this as I teach it in my cohorts and everywhere is the classical view first. I think that’s the one that we all kind of know because a lot of people have watered down the term itself. And then I tell you how I think it will be in 2024. So product-led growth technically is a distribution methodology or method or way of distributing your product into the market by self-serving value. That’s like the stupid sentence when you hear a product that sells itself. What can we do without involving a human person to make everything self-serve? So we have a product that is easy to test, you test it out, you go through, you say like, hey, I want it, like, I’m going to pay $15 a month or whatever. So a good example would be Netflix, Spotify, any of these SaaS companies where you can just self-serve anything and you’re never talking to a sales rep at any point.
That’s the kind of classical definition. Originally the term originated in B2B. Why did it originate in B2B? Because in B2C, you can almost not do anything else, right? Like in B2C it is normal to do product-led growth. And then you hear these stupid sentences of people that say, like, we’ve been doing this forever. In the consumer segment what are you talking about, Leah? This is so stupid. It’s so simple, except it’s quite hard in B2B. And this is now how I talk about it in regards to product growth in B2B, which means there is a specific inflection point when we talk about product-led activation, where we not try to self-serve everything in the customer’s journey, but as much as we can before we involve a human, that is sometimes before the monetization point. So before we ask you for some kind of amount of money, and sometimes after, a typical example would be you are self-serving a demo on a website of an incredibly hard to integrate product for enterprise customers.
You’re getting a very good idea what this is about. Now you’re starting to get interested, you go back to your CTO, you ask about, hey, does the technical implementation with these guys, does that work? like, can we check for certifications and that kind of stuff? Can we do the due diligence on these? And this is a part of product-led activation because at some point you can be sure they’re going to call Gary the sales guy from that particular company to finish negotiations and pricing talks and all of this kind of stuff. So in that sense, B2B is really a methodology to understand how much of it we can self-serve for two reasons. One of them is to maximize cost efficiency. It is cheaper than talking to a salesperson. But on the other hand, there are some really interesting market segments that do not want to talk to a salesperson, even if it was for free. Developers are a good example. There are some segments that just don’t want to have any human interaction, not because they don’t like to talk to humans. It’s just like, this is the way that we’ve been doing business in these market segments. So it depends on where you sell, what is the expectation of that particular segment and how you sell. This is how I look at product-led growth.
Mark Stiving
So, that isn’t exactly the answer I thought that I was going to hear. So let me query something. I always assume product-led growth is you’re trying the product and whether it’s for free or not for free, you’re actually using and trying the product and then we lead you into upsells, we lead you into buying products. And so that makes sense to me. But what I heard you say is, if I give you YouTube demos, YouTube videos, and if I do my marketing and my sales in more of an automated fashion, that also counts as product-led growth, even though you aren’t using the product.
Leah Tharin
So, this is an excellent point, and I think first of all, it doesn’t matter, right? Like every company is going to try to do whatever they can to make it the most efficient. Now, it doesn’t matter whether a demo is coming from a product department or from a marketing department in the form of a video, probably not in terms of as long as what you’re looking at is more relevant. However, there is a case to be made that, for instance, with interactive demos, which are a very interesting case because traditionally we talk about product-led growth in the terms of trials, freemiums getting something for free forever until you buy it and so forth. But I also talk about it in the context of getting an interactive demo where you understand what they now do inside of this demo? Because a demo is like a sophisticated video in some kind of way, right?
Like it’s an interactive video in some kind of way, but it helps to have very solid tracking in there to understand, hey, what did Mark do in there? Like where did he spend the most time? Who is Mark? Where does he recommend this thing further? And this is where classical videos are just like failing for instance. But it doesn’t matter how you string the cat or how you call it. This is one of the reasons why when I give keynotes when I talk about this topic, I give a very specific definition of what I understand about product-led growth. Because you can have four people, four product people in the room talking about PLG, and you get four different definitions. Look, in the end, it doesn’t matter. Every company wants to have the most efficient way to the market and in there, most companies already do something product-led. And most companies already also do, by the way, something sales-led. It’s impossible to find a company that has more than 10 million in revenue that does not have at least one guy that calls themselves sales or is using sales tools. It’s just not realistic.
Mark Stiving
And so, what is it about companies that say, hey, I’m going to try product-led growth. Are they really saying our sales process is inefficient and we want to figure out a more efficient sales process? Or are they saying something different?
Leah Tharin
So, this is a very interesting question because there’s two angles to cover this from. So let’s assume you are a, let’s say 10, 15 years ago. Like you’re a big publishing house, you have a newspaper, it’s been going forever. And now what’s starting to happen is that we start to have competition from corners where we did not expect competition from, namely blogs, substack, that kind of stuff, right? So like we have a lot of written publications and they tend to take these people in some kind of way differently. So what happens there, even though this is not a classical B2B business in that sense, is that the current motion that they have to go into the market with physical prints or actually going out and selling advertisements and so forth, it just doesn’t work that well anymore.
It costs too much. Your CAC is going up, so your cost per acquisition is going up. The time it takes to pay back this acquisition is going up as well because you start to lower your prices. Because if you used to charge $40 for your newspaper per month and you’re competing now against a blog that is charging for the same stuff, maybe two to $5, overly simplified, you have to do some kind of adjustment to the market. So exactly what you said is going to happen. And the first movement is that we have typically either a sales company that has been used to sell and activate through salespeople, mostly in some kind of way. So like a relatively high touch intense motion. And now they’re getting disrupted by companies who do not need to do that and they’re doing it just more cost efficient.
So this is in some kind of a cost-efficiency question because we also do it in the upper markets in a way that we give to customers choice, which means if they want to talk to a salesperson, we’re not going to say like, hey, we don’t have salespeople for you, Mark. It’s just we start to kind of separate where it makes the most sense. So what you said is exactly correct and there’s some problems with that as well. A typical sales company, sales-led growth company has much more problems pivoting or integrating product-led growth than a product led growth company who is used to sell to a lower segment and then is starting to move up market. I’m just going to pause here for a second, but this is how I look at it because these are two fundamentally different challenges when you talk about how you structure the price, how you structure your organization and how you sell it into the market afterwards.
Mark Stiving
I think that makes a lot of sense. Do us a favor and since your definition of PLG was so good, define sales-led growth for us.
Leah Tharin
So the way that I define it is also in the same way, classical sales-led growth where we have a lot of visibility into how our sales pipeline moves. So typically it’s the start of like an SQL, an MQL starting to be created somewhere in your pipeline. So this is someone that is being activated or qualified in some kind of way, mostly through firmographics. So I’m looking into not who Mark is only, but also like in which company do you work and how potentially big could the account be. This is very, very firmographics-driven and it’s extremely driven on existing intent. What do I mean with this? I mean if you have a specific intent, so like you’re looking to buy something, right? So like where I’m calling you up and accidentally you have this particular problem that I’m trying to bank in on the interest that you have at this particular moment.
I’m trying to also convince you. It’s a natural motion for sales and there’s nothing wrong about it. What it does though is if you look at the classical sales funnel, it is usually always something with cold and getting warmer, right? So like we have a cold and then we have a demo maybe then we go into the negotiations like a draft goes back and forth and it’s very, very commonly a long-term commitment. You need to sign for like one, two years, maybe three years. These contracts are now getting less common as well. and this is a high risk upfront investment, usually with relatively little opportunity for you to test the product unless you already show a lot of intent. So for example, if I give you the option to have a POC with me, like a proof of concept for one or two months, then I’m giving you kind of a trial, but I’m not allowing everybody to do this, right?
Like you still go into the call with me, you still have to kind of prove that you are worth it. in that kind of sense. And this is a very typical sales-led motion. Now what is the fundamental difference from this to product-led growth? Is that because we spend so much time and money in the visibility of this particular funnel on moving someone’s intents to buy, this is also what we manage and that is not always in the interest of the customer. So going back to your original point, which I agree with customer value is the predictor of pricing. But sometimes in classical sales-led growth, what we have to be very wary of is that incentivization plans are not always aligned on customer value but on closing high for sales. And that’s not always the same thing. And what we try to do with product-led growth is we try to build a different relationship with the customers by giving them something for free with very low binding terms and so forth before we move over. So this is how I would define this contrast between classical sales-led growth and classical product-led growth.
Mark Stiving
Okay, I don’t know how to ask this next question. So let me just ask it in a wild way. What does this have to do with pricing? How do you think of pricing differently in SLG versus PLG?
Leah Tharin
So I’m going to just simplify it dramatically because every company talks about the same thing, fundamentally. So what you said in the beginning is as well something about expansion value, right? So you set it yourself trying to close the customer relatively low and then we try to monetize them through upsells, expansion value and so forth. Now, expansion value is nothing new for a salesperson. Usually this is covered by bigger companies’ customer success functions where you have someone that is taking care of existing customers and it’s just like, hey, we saw that you were using this kind of stuff, do you not want to use this additional part and so forth. So the concept of expansion value is nothing new. However, what we try to do in product-led growth is exactly this. It’s not so much about how much the customer spends in the initial payment with us or like even the first couple of months, maybe even year. It is about the lifetime value, how fast we can escalate this of course as well because this is also a sign of customer value. It’s very, very direct. So net revenue retention is one of the metrics that we are looking at very, very closely. So like how much of the existing revenue from last year could we retain and also expand? And we’re doing this over a very interesting kind of mechanics.
And this usually clashes with sales because if you imagine like if you sign up for my product for $30, there’s nothing, even if I get 50% of that as a share as a salesperson, there’s not, it’s not a lot of food on my plate. So, how does this work? It works in the sense that we try to think about the customer in a more longer term kind of way. It’s not about just closing them, it’s about looking at the entire journey. So per activation that we have, we already know that a specific percentage of the existing customers will also expand afterwards. And with this you can also make predictions on what you think the revenue is going to look like. Now, what has that to do with pricing? It usually means that what you offer as a core product becomes overly simplified, cheaper, easier to try, but not unlimited. So an enterprise that has still bulk usage in that it uses your product quite a lot will still hit the same limitations as before. But even an enterprise might be interested in trying out a product just with three to four people just to see what’s what, right? Like before they even call the salesperson. So the reality is always more complex. Most companies do product-led sales, which is a mixture between both. And that’s the reality that we see as well in the market. Now,
Mark Stiving
Okay, I’m going to try to repeat what you just said. It seems like in product-led growth, the whole goal is, I want to get my foot in the door in either a very inexpensive or even free manner. And so therefore I’m willing to take a much lower price for that initial sale. And typically I think of this as will I, on which one. So when someone’s making a which one decision, am I going to buy from you or am I going to buy from your competitor? I want that to be super attractive, super easy, get my foot in the door once I’ve decided I like you, I love you, this is a great product that works for us. Well I want to use more of it, I want more people to use it. I want to expand somehow. Now our buyers are only making a ‘will I decision’. So we don’t have competition at that point and therefore we get to charge higher prices, higher margins for the expansion products than we did for the initial base product essentially.
Leah Tharin
That is exactly right. And I would say just one addition to this, one another way that you can look at this in commoditized markets where the customers have more choice, it’s not just about selecting the correct product, right? So like let’s say you’re an enterprise buyer and you have two major options of something, it might matter much more like what the product is about than if you had 20 to 30 options because your company is not going to evaluate all 20 or 30 options. So what they will do is they will go with the product-led variance because they can easily test them until they find one that is good enough and then no matter how good your sales-led product was, they will not look at it because we’re already living in a commoditized market. So for commoditized markets, product-led growth, if it can be done, it’s not always the right thing.
If it can be done, definitely the choice that you have to make. In new verticals, extremely complicated integrations, we tend to be more sales-led for sure. Just to add some numbers on what you just said, normal growth companies above 20 million in ARR right now are getting 45% of their value purely from expansion. These are numbers from 2023. So getting the foot into the door early, grabbing enterprise value before it also becomes enterprise value. Because we have two versions there. The first one is what you described, activate someone slowly and then expand inside of the company. And the second thing is, naturally some of your clients will expand with you as they stay with you over the years. And we want to be able to retain them. For this, we need to have a product that scales with them. Think HubSpot is a very good example. Salesforce cannot do this really well and this is why HubSpot is such a danger to them in some, at least some market segments. But they also rely on expanding their customers into enterprise because you cannot just survive on a SMB business in that particular space.
Mark Stiving
Nice. Talk to us about freemium for a second. When I think of freemiI often think of LinkedIn as my number one go-to example.
Leah Tharin
Yeah, so what is the purpose of a trial or a freemium in the first place when we talk about business and usually freemiums are equated with PLG and that’s very, very close as well. So like with product-led growth. So why is this the case? So what is a freemium? A freemium is usually a free version of the product that is not time limited. So you can use it forever as long as the company exists, but it is usage-limited in some kind of way. So let me give you a stupid example. Let’s say we have a car, you’re a car manufacturer, you have two choices now. You can either give away your car to test for as much as people want to drive, but you lock certain features, right? Like the device does not turn on, you cannot connect your phone. You’re just like, you can just drive it, right? Like, but there’s nothing, you will not really experience the car but you can drive it for as long as you want or we limit the amount that you can drive and give you full access to the entire car as much as possible. So we give you the car per day for 50 kilometers. It’s not enough to run a business, but it is enough to use it for free to get a good idea and to get some kind of habit going in there. like you can occasionally do something with it. Now what is the point of this and why do so many companies struggle with this is if you think about your product, your product is much, much more than just like a collection of features. You would think that, oh like we have features one to a hundred and this is our product.
It’s not exactly true. A lot of the value that customers perceive about the solutions in their life is also like, hey, customer support, how quick are they to respond? How stable is everything and so forth. And understanding, feeling your product for free is usually better for activation and long-term revenue than any explanation that you can give me. We were talking about planes really quickly before the talk. There’s a specific difference between sitting in the simulator and sitting in an actual plane. And this is the kind of same thing that is at play here. Even though we think about computers as a very one dimensional thing. So what do we try to do with a freemium? We try to give enough to give some kind of context. So you might be incentivized to move up into a trial and inferred from the trial, you know how it goes, right?
So like we try to convert 40% whatever to a paid version. However, there’s just one more point. if I can elaborate on this. It’s a very important function that freemiums have that a lot of companies do not talk about. You might ask yourself, why should I give my product for free forever if they never pay at some point, right? Like, okay, the cost is not that high, but why should I give it for free? What is the purpose of giving something for free if Mark is not buying after two years? And that is a valid question, but the thing is, if we look at the conversion rates, how many people do I need in my free plan active versus those that pay? Then we see conversion rates in B2C and micro businesses of about 1%, SMB 7%, enterprise 20%. So the majority if you do, will stay on your free plan. What is the purpose of those? Why should we keep those?
The use of them is that at some point they will probably know someone that does have a need that is monetizable much more likely than anyone else. Sometimes they also have a need that is developing over time where they say like, hey, now is the time I’m using this thing anyways, let’s go into a paid plan. And the unit economics for you seem to work because we’re in tech where it’s not like a car, right? Like I don’t have to produce a million cars just to get one sold. In tech it just does not matter that much. Or like at least in SaaS, this is how I look at freemiums. So this is why you want to structure it in this way. It’s not good for every company. I just want to say this, right? Like it’s not a miracle thing for every company, but usually in a down market segment it is a very, very powerful weapon.
Mark Stiving
And so given a choice between the two types of free products that you offered, one was limited-usage and the other was limited-feature sets. Now which do you recommend or prefer?
Leah Tharin
Almost universally you can say that a freemium that is usage limited or like, sorry, usage-limited but gives you a very good picture of the core value. So there’s core value and then there’s expanded value of your product. A lot of horizontal businesses, specifically sales that companies are dealing with horizontal feature sets that are so complicated that they are always running into the danger of confusing their customers. So a freemium should also be a way to focus your stuff. So if you are about converting documents in a very specific way, so I’ll give you a good example for small PDF, we were paying a lot of attention towards having simple tool flows to do very basic things. So you are uploading a PDF, we gave you the compressed version very, very fast. We did not even ask you to register in some kind of way because we knew that this is what’s important.
So what we gave customers is we gave them one action per day or two actions per day that they could use on the platform as soon as they registered, they could do two without registration. It was just one. But we gave you this value, no questions asked and it was not complicated. There was no complicated signup flow and so forth. And because we limited it in this way, we had this huge like 50 million monthly active users that were just like flocking in and then paying like, I don’t know, paid accounts like two to 400,000 depending on how you look at it. And this is what makes this so powerful. So usually you try to figure out what is important to convert.
What does the car make, what makes it drive, what is the differentiator in our market? What makes it special versus the other thing that they’re using? And now we’re getting into the discussion of like, where do you acquire customers? Are they prosumers or like, are they people who already have a solution and you try to churn them away from the other thing? Or are they greenfield customers? And this is an interesting question because all of this is connected now to the pricing as well because you’re competing in one scenario against a competitor in the other one. You compete against what they’ve been doing as a stopgap solution beforehand.
Mark Stiving
So, how do you correlate minimum viable product and base product for PLG? Are they the same thing? Do you think of them differently?
Leah Tharin
So, let’s say you mean for just a whole company? Like an entire company? So like what is the minimum to know whether you have product market fit? If that is your question. I’m not a hundred percent sure that is your question.
Mark Stiving
I often think of a minimum viable product as the least number of features I could deliver to someone where they’re truly getting value from my product.
Leah Tharin
Yes. Okay, good. So a good way of thinking about this is that I do not care what you ship. I really don’t. Right? So like in regards to my product teams, I don’t care what they ship, I don’t care what features they produce, I don’t care any of this. What they need to produce is they need to tell me which kind of metrics they want to move. And with that they are also having some kind of hypothesis on how they’re going to do this. So for instance, the goal is to move people from A to B faster. And we can do this by a simplification of the signup process or by shipping a new feature that is like moving people faster through or whatever your goal is, there needs to be some kind of outcome-driven goal that can be measured.
And the question of what is a minimum viable product in some kind of way is in my head a minimum viable signal. So what is a good signal to look out for that we can try then to serve either with minimum viable products ourselves or whatever you’re going to produce in your company. And usually this is some kind of signal, I’ll give you an example in a second that is activating between 20 to 80% of the people from A to B. So very specifically, let’s say I am interested as a company, I have already a good product and I’m looking at, we need to improve the way that everybody that comes in is going from being ready to experiencing this aha moment that we just defined, right? Like driving the car. Because we don’t have a lot of conversion rate between this, right? So it’s only like 30% are only reaching this.
All I’m saying to my product is, I don’t care what you do, but move this number up from 30 to 45, just as an example. And then they have a hypothesis on like, hey, how, what does this mean? Do we have to build new features out of this? Or what does this mean for our ICPs? Do we need to do more research before we kind of understand this and so forth. So this is a very outcome-driven way in thinking about this. And while MVPs are a very good kind of structure in building and testing features, because PLG is very test heavy, I can also speak about this really quickly afterwards. There are other methods of this as well. So one of them is to do it through research and then the last method, or like the first one that you should do anyways, is some kind of sensible business case where you try to build an informed business case before you start to build an MVP. I’m not sure this answers your question at all but this is how I think about it.
Mark Stiving
I think it was awesome and sadly we’re running out of time. So I want to ask you the final question I always ask, what’s one piece of pricing advice you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Leah Tharin
So depending on which stage you are, I want to make two tips here. The first one is depending on the stage that you are in your company, so are you at a very early stage? Are you still like trying to figure out product-market fit? Don’t change your price too much because as long as you change your product fundamentally the pricing questions, it’s okay if it’s good enough, right? Like you don’t need to hyper optimize it. Honestly, I think it’s a big mistake to do this. Once you’re big enough to change your pricing often, experiment with it. We know that companies who are experimenting on pricing a lot, and now I’m talking mostly about SaaS companies, have a hundred percent higher ARPU than other companies who were not doing it. And this is simply because if you’re busy building your entire product for a year and you make it better, then probably your market is also willing to pay more or less depending on what’s been happening in the market. And the second piece is a very simple one. If you cannot convince people to use your stuff for free, then I think you should not have any price on your product. So fix that first.
Mark Stiving
Okay, so I have to laugh at the second one. I totally agree. What I loved about your first suggestion was that it makes a ton of sense, and I tell companies this all the time, I don’t really care what your initial price is, right? It’s not that important. Get a price out there and then get people to buy it and later we can figure out what the right price is once we understand how people value the product.
Leah Tharin
Absolutely.
Mark Stiving
So Leah, A, you’re brilliant, and B, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Leah Tharin
They can do that by going to my website, which is my first name and last name dot com, which is LEAH and then T-H-A-R-I-N or you just go to LinkedIn and then just look for Leah or you go to Google and you type in PLG and then Leah. I’m so prominent that now Google knows who I am. So, you will find me like this. But, yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
Mark Stiving
Oh, it was my pleasure. And to our listeners, thank you guys for your time today. If you enjoyed this, would you please leave us a rating and a review? And finally, if you have any questions or comments about the podcast or pricing, feel free to email me, [email protected]. Now, go make an impact
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