Steven Forth is Ibbaka’s Co-Founder, CEO, and Partner. Ibbaka is a strategic pricing advisory firm. He was CEO of LeveragePoint Innovations Inc., a SaaS business designed to help companies create and capture value.
In this episode, Steven advocates for proactive scenario planning, encouraging businesses to identify critical uncertainties and fortify their pricing strategies for the uncertainties of the future.
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Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Understand the significance of pricing as a strategic element often overlooked in planning, and recognize its pivotal role in post-COVID economic landscapes
- Acknowledge the shift to a sounder economic period, where capital has a tangible cost, emphasizing the importance of net present value as a cornerstone of planning assumptions
- Prioritize fixing issues strategically, considering both short-term and long-term plays, and embrace scenario planning for effective pricing strategies in a dynamic environment
“I think we are settling into a sounder economic period where capital has a cost, net present value matters, and we need to have that as a planning assumption.”
– Steven Forth
Topics Covered:
01:38 – An observation about pricing being overlooked in strategic planning for 2024 and pricing being just an afterthought
04:20 – The need to strategically approach pricing in the context of the next three years post-COVID and thoughts on the monetization of generative AI
07:24 – Important thoughts on what kind of impact will AI have in businesses in the years ahead in comparison to what blockchain years ago
09:32 – From low interest rates to normal range, the importance of capital costs and net present value as part of planning assumptions.
13:05 – The need to take realistic steps to investments in AI, impact of non-zero interest rates on capital costs, the stabilization of buying behaviors into 2024 and how all these are considered in pricing planning in 2024
18:47 – Prioritizing what needs to be fixed first rather than fixing all at once and risk messing up everything
19:52 – How often should one conduct a pricing strategy
22:25 -Two key things in mind when planning for 2024: first establish baselines and trends, then aligning pricing with the overall strategic goals of the company
27:13 – What it means to have a portfolio point of view when making pricing planning and how to implement a faster cadence to reach your pricing goals
30:09 – Attributing business results to pricing changes and introducing the concept of causal analysis
Key Takeaways:
“I think we are settling into a sounder economic period where capital has a cost, net present value matters and we need to have that as a planning assumption.” – Steven Forth
“You can’t really do strategic planning if you don’t understand where you are and how you got there.” – Steven Forth
“I would encourage people to at least consider looking at scenario planning where you plan for more than one scenario. You identify critical uncertainties and you plan for each of the critical uncertainties. That approach would make a lot of sense for pricing.” – Steven Forth
People /Resources Mentioned:
- Judea Pearl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_Pearl
- The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect: https://www.amazon.com/Book-Why-Science-Cause-Effect/dp/046509760X
Connect with Steven Forth:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenforth/
- Email: [email protected]
Connect with Mark Stiving:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
- Email: [email protected]
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Steven Forth
I think we are settling into a sounder economic period where capital has a cost, net present value matters, and we need to have that as a planning assumption.
[Intro]
Mark Stiving
Today’s podcast is sponsored by Jennings Executive Search. I had a great conversation with John Jennings about the skills needed in different pricing roles. He and I think a lot alike. If you’re looking for a new pricing role, or if you’re trying to hire just the right pricing person, I strongly suggest you reach out to Jennings Executive Search. They specialize in placing pricing people. Say that three times fast.
Mark Stiving
Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value, and the tense relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Our guest today, once again, is the one and only Steven Forth. And you know all about Steven. So welcome, Steven.
Steven Forth
Delighted to be back, Mark.
Mark Stiving
Hey, it’s always great having these conversations with you. you had suggested we talk about pricing planning for 2024. I’m going to do my best to release this towards the end of December so everybody can have this as they’re starting out their January year. so I’m going to let you open. What do you want to talk about? I’ve got a lot of notes that I think are important, but what do you talk about?
Steven Forth
Well, I think that when you look at strategic plans, I’m sure that you’re seeing a lot of early stage planning for 2024 across your desk. And one of the things that I notice is that price is under referenced in these plans. So sometimes there’s some talk about we’ll do a price increase or we will align prices. Sometimes it gets a single line or a single slide. But given the importance and the impact that pricing and packaging has on a business, I think it’s under-indexed in the strategic planning process.
Mark Stiving
Okay. I couldn’t agree more, but I have a really important question to ask. Isn’t that just a general comment about pricing in companies, and it has nothing to do with strategic planning for next year.
Steven Forth
That’s no doubt the root cause. That pricing is often an afterthought. and it’s an afterthought in the business. It’s an afterthought in the sales process. It’s an afterthought in product design, but we’re coming into the planning season. So I think it is a good thing to think through how price should be considered as part of 2024 strategic planning. And 2023 was a very interesting year for a lot of companies. It was a transitional year for many companies. It’s a post COVID year. It’s a relatively high interest rate year. Many markets are being disrupted by the introduction of generative AI. I’m pretty sure that if we look at people’s plans that they developed in late 2022 for 2023 that people are a long way off plan for most companies. But 2024 is going to be a critical year. I don’t think it’s a transitional year the way that 2023 was. I think for many verticals, it’s going to be the year that sets the tone for the next five years. So even if we had done great planning a year ago, we probably still would’ve gotten a bit whipsawed during the current year.
Mark Stiving
So, I want to say what you said slightly differently, if I may. So I think what you just said was that at the end of 2022, we went into our plan with a set of assumptions, and those assumptions pretty much got blown up in 2023.
Steven Forth
Yeah.
Mark Stiving
And as we’re starting into 2024, the assumptions we come up with are probably going to be decent assumptions moving forward for at least 2024, if not the next five years.
Steven Forth
Yes. Let’s say the next three years. But, as a SaaS person, I think, for me the long term is three years, seems reasonable. Yeah, I think the things are starting to cohere and now is a really good opportunity for people to get strategic about their pricing in a way that might have been more difficult year ago. And two years ago we were still struggling with the aftermath of COVID. Things are settling out, and now is a really critical time to get strategic, and price is a big part of that.
Mark Stiving
Okay. And so what do you think, let’s start with what you think those assumptions should be, because you talked of the transition year in 2023. so we had, generative AI was a huge one, and I know that you think about it a lot. How should companies be thinking about that going into next year?
Steven Forth
So, okay, if we’re just going to focus on generative AI, and let’s do that for a moment. massive amounts of money were invested over the past year, both by investors, but also within companies. So Ibbaka has a survey going out right now on the monetization of AI. And we don’t have the data yet. We’ll talk about that survey in more detail once it’s completed and we’ve analyzed it. but even people who are skeptics are investing between five and 15% of their R and D budget in AI. And I think Open View shared some data recently that said 70%of B2B SaaS companies were making some form of investment in generative AI. So that’s operating companies. That’s not the new venture capital that flowed into the sector. Great and interesting. But, markets have a very short attention span, and unless people start showing a return on those investments or a path to a return on those investments, there’s going to be a lot of angst and frustration. So in 2023, you could put a little magic wand in a text box and people would say, wow, that’s cool. but we’re in 2024, we’ll be past the wow, that’s cool phase. And we’ll have to be able to show the value that the AI is creating. And then for our investors and shareholders, we have to show that we are able to capture part of the value we are creating. And I think that’s going to be one of the main themes of 2024.
Mark Stiving
Okay. I don’t want to spend the whole thing on AI, but I do want to bring up an analogy and have you address it, if I may. I remember a few years ago I was doing a presentation and somebody stood up and said, blockchain is the future. Everything is going to go blockchain. And one could argue that we’re saying the exact same thing three years later about AI. And so by the way, everything didn’t go blockchain, right?
Steven Forth
Yeah. And never will.
Mark Stiving
Right.
Steven Forth
Yeah. good question. And one of the questions that we ask in the survey is, what’s your general attitude towards AI? And one of the possible answers is that it’s overhyped. And one of the follow up questions is what kind of impact will AI have and the answer over the next three years? Where’s the three year timeframe again? And one of the answers is no impact or little impact. And I have no doubt that there are sectors where that’s true.
Mark Stiving
Yep. And the opposite is true as well in other sectors.
Steven Forth
Yeah. And in some sectors it’s already rewriting the rules. When was the last time that you used something that was on the blockchain?
Mark Stiving
Well, honestly, I think it all happens behind the scenes, so I couldn’t really answer that question,
Steven Forth
But I suspect that unless you’re trading NFTs, the answer is probably you haven’t. It’s computationally expensive. It’s not clear what real value it adds. There was never a real business case for it. On the other hand though, when was the last time you used a generative AI?
Mark Stiving
I don’t want to tell you that I prepared for this podcast with it.
Steven Forth
And most of us use it every day, right? Yes. I was on a call this morning with a really interesting company in the educational market, and we were looking at their ICPs, their ideal customer profiles, and the person said, yeah, and boy was ChatGPT ever useful in creating these, so, we’re already creating value. And people are and it’s already a habit in many places.
Mark Stiving
Yep. Okay, I don’t want to spend the whole time on ChatGPT, I just wanted to get the feel for where we were going. What were some of the other assumptions? So we talked about interest rates, and I’m going to lump inflation in with that. So how should companies be thinking about that for the next three years?
Steven Forth
Well, I think basically, we went through a period of historically low interest rates. We started to think that that was normal, but it wasn’t. And we’re back. We’re kind of back to normal, interest rates today are not high. They’re sort of reasonable. And if businesses can’t operate and capital should have a cost, if capital is free as it is when you have almost zero interest rates, you’re going to get market distortions. So I think we are settling into a sound economic period where capital has a cost, net present value matters. and we need to have that as a planning assumption. Now, I don’t think all of the changes that this triggers have finished cascading through the economy, take a business that’s a bit different from the one that you and I are involved in, but real estate development.
So real estate development in Southern California, for example, has slowed down considerably. I don’t think that that means that it’s going through a long-term decline. I think that projects need to be financed. The financing now has different terms, and it takes a period of time for the market to adjust. Same thing for SaaS companies. SaaS companies, three years ago, we didn’t worry about the cost of our operating capital farthest thing from our minds. We were focused almost completely on driving revenues driving recurring revenue in order to build shareholder value. And that’s changed quite a bit, but I think it’s changed in a healthy way. And investment has not gone away. People are still investing, and they will continue to invest. There’s huge pools of capital available but they will expect to get reasonable returns on sound businesses.
Mark Stiving
Yep.
Steven Forth
So this is all a really good thing.
Mark Stiving
So the one thing I like about what you said that I’d never thought of before, is having a real interest rate, meaning non-zero interest rate causes people to make better decisions. And so we’ll end up with less waste overall because of that. So I like that idea a lot.
Steven Forth
Yeah. And I think that corporate buyers were very quiet in the first half of 2023. and there was, if you look at all the data, it shows that buying cycles got stretched out. Pipeline velocity slowed down if you really look at it. Conversion rates didn’t actually change. The actual conversion rate didn’t change. It’s just that the pipeline velocity slowed depending on the sector by anywhere from 20% to 70%. So it felt like stuff was not converting, but in fact, things were converting at the same percentages. They were just taking longer to convert. And in Q3we started to see things get back to what the new normal is going to be. so I think that in Q3 and Q4, we’re going to see something that is closer to the new normal, which again, is going to make planning easier and more effective.
Mark Stiving
Okay. You mentioned three transitions. What was the third one? Do you remember it? And if not, that’s okay, we’ll move on. It was coming out of COVID, but I’m not sure that…
Steven Forth
Oh, yeah, I think, so the critical things I think are it’s time to get real about investments in AI and other advanced technologies and things associated with AI. Digital twins would be a, we have to accept that interest rates are going to remain non-zero. They’ll go up and down, but they’re not going to go back down to zero in the short, even in the medium term. And as a result, capital has a real cost. and then the buying behaviors, I think, are stabilizing. So the buying behaviors we’re seeing in Q3 and Q4are likely to continue on into 2024.
Mark Stiving
Okay. I’ll buy those. Now the question is, how does that affect my pricing planning?
Steven Forth
I think the first thing we have to do is establish a baseline. So a baseline has to be more than just a single number. Let’s think of one of the things that people are rightly obsessed about these days, which is the impact of pricing and packaging on net revenue retention. So, as I’m obsessing these days, part of it is because it’s such a good measure of value. A new logo acquisition is a measure of how effective your sales messaging is. But net revenue retention people will not stay with you unless they’re getting value. So it is a good way of connecting back to value, which I think we both agree is the foundation for any work done in pricing.
So, coming back to your question, what do we need to do as we’re preparing our pricing plans for 2024? The first thing is just understand what the baseline is. But the baseline is, um your trend. So again, I was looking at a company’s net revenue retention numbers earlier today and looking and it was great. They knew how their NRR had changed quarter by quarter each quarter for the last three years. And they presented that so you could really get a feel for what was happening. The other thing, um is net revenue retention is a composite number. So you have to understand the trends in the different pieces or factors that make up net revenue retention. So that’s part of it. You need to just to understand what your baseline is and do it as a trend rather than a single snapshot in time.
We last talked about NRR you, you challenged me and said, well, you didn’t include price increases as one of your, your levers, which is a great question. And that’s another thing that people need to do. Did you change prices in 2023, increased or decreased them, or repackaged and repriced? If you did, what impact did that have? How did your co on all of the different parts, what did it, what impact did it have on your win, loss, on your conversion? Did it pull more people into your pipeline? Did it pull higher quality opportunities into your pipeline? One thing that a price increase can do is get you higher quality opportunities into your pipeline. Because if the price is relatively high only people that are serious are going to enter your, enter your pipeline anyway you, you, you get the idea. So look at the impact that your, your pricing had or your price changes had on all of your critical metrics. And then, the other thing is, is to look out and look at what your competitors did. Did they change prices? If they did, what impact did it have on you? What impact did it have on, on the market as a whole? So you, you can’t really do strategic planning if you don’t understand where you are and how you got there.
Mark Stiving
Okay, so now’s a great time for me to come back and say, here’s what I think of strategic planning. I think strategic planning is fixing all the things we don’t do well already, because in the world of pricing, so few companies do things well that I don’t need to go plan how am I going to improve this thing next year? It’s how am I going to do the things I’m supposed to be doing next year? And that’s actually how I would think about it.
Steven Forth
Yeah. And, but again, if you look and just pick on net revenue retention, again, maybe you are doing a great job at managing retention and you have a sub-sector or a segment of your customers that are successfully growing in product, assuming that you have a usage-based pricing metric in there somewhere. But you may also have another segment of customers that are shrinking in product. So just looking at the aggregate number is not going to tell you enough. You need to look at the granular number and look at what do the companies that are growing in product have in common? What do the companies that are shrinking in product have in common? And how do I address each of these segments through my pricing tactics?
Mark Stiving
Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. And, and the other thing that you started to say, and, and let’s just pound it home for a second, right? There are four different ways you can grow a customer. You raise prices, my favorite. we could upsell, we can cross sell and usage, right? So they can use more of our product because of the right pricing metrics. And my recommendation is always you should be measuring all four of those. And so you can create a goal for each one of those four and say, hey, we’re not doing enough cross-sell. How do we improve cross-sell? Or we’re not doing enough upsell. How do we improve upsell? And so each one of those is a great indicator for us to say, here’s where we need to go focus more resources, more energy.
Steven Forth
Yeah. I agree. The only thing I would caution people on is, yeah, all of those are great things, but if you try to do them all at once you’re likely to trip over yourself.
Mark Stiving
Absolutely.
Steven Forth
So, it may be that you have an upsell problem, but that there’s a larger opportunity by addressing cross-sell and vice versa. So I don’t think there’s any one size fits all solution, but I do think people need to be selective and strategic planning is in part every company has lots of problems. You’re not going to fix them all at once. What do we need to fix now?
Mark Stiving
Yep. I love that. Love that. Well, one of the things that I’ve heard from other pricing folks, and I’d love to get your opinion on this, is that they think we should be doing a pricing experiment every quarter, right? So we should be doing something new every quarter. Now, so one could argue we’re going to work on upsell this quarter. We’re going to work on cross-sell next quarter. We’re going to work on… It doesn’t mean we’re going to get it right. Doesn’t mean there’s room to change it. We’re going to go work on it.
Steven Forth
So I agree that we need to be taking more pricing actions and where possible doing more pricing experiments, quarters are, I think, a bad cadence for most SaaS companies. And here’s the way I think about this. It takes three data points to establish a trend. Whatever your cycle time is, it’s going to take three cycles to get insight into a trend. It’s probably going to take you another cycle to decide how to act. Then it’s going to take you a cycle to act. I’m being a bit pessimistic here, but I don’t think this is unrealistic. and then it’s going to take another three quarters to see the results of the action. And depending on the category in the business, three might be optimistic. So if your cadence is quarterly, I just described a two year plan.
So, I think pricing needs to be more agile and more responsive than that. and we need to work out the pricing actions that we can take at a faster cadence, especially in SaaS businesses. We’re not talking here about passenger airplanes where the cycles are meaningfully much longer and need to be much longer. I think one of the reasons that the SaaS model destroyed the conventional model is I’m sure you’re a much better chess player than me, but I have a set of rules for playing chess where I’m reasonably sure I can beat you. I get to make three moves for every move you make. That’s what SaaS did to conventional software companies. But as SaaS matures and gets, let’s face it, something gets a bit ossified, many SaaS companies are at risk of companies with fundamentally different product architectures and fundamentally different assumptions about the market coming in, and not necessarily out innovating them, but innovating at a faster cadence. So one of the questions we should be asking is, does generative AI make it possible to innovate faster?
I don’t know the answer to that question, and I suspect the answer differs from sector to sector. But one of the most interesting set of conversations I’ve been having is this idea that we’re going to build our platform on AI. So AI is not an appendage that we stick onto our platform. It is the platform and everything gets built on top of that. but I want to pull us back into, uh planning for 2024 because there are two other areas I think we should at least mention.
Mark Stiving
Oh, please.
Steven Forth
And the second. So the first thing you do is to establish your baselines and trends and understand how you got where you are and how you got there. Second is how does pricing align with the overall strategic goals of the company? And that’s a really important step to take, this alignment because pricing can do many things, but if you expect it to do everything, you’re going to fail. And it’s easy for it to do the wrong thing given the overall goals that the company has. So it’s really critical that pricing and pricing leaders make sure that whatever they’re doing on pricing aligns with the overall goals of the company.
Mark Stiving
Just for kicks, give us an example.
Steven Forth
Yeah. Working with a very interesting internet of things company right now where they currently have a very technical sale. but their vision is to enable and recalibrate the entire value chain. And in order to do that, they need to be talking to the CEO to the c-suite. Right now, the way that they have priced and the way that they communicate their value, very few c-suite people are going to have the patience to listen to them. It is an extraordinarily technical pricing structure. If they’re going to reach their goal, which is over the next three years to be able to cover a larger amount of the value chain in the industry they serve and to interact with people in the c-suite, they need to think fundamentally differently about how they create value, how they communicate that value, and how they price to capture that value. So, on the other hand if their strategy had been, we’re going to go really deep into the technical side of this and own one technical part of the value chain, then they might want to double down on what they’re doing. Because what they’re doing is not wrong. It’s just not fit for the strategy that they say that they’re going to execute on.
Mark Stiving
Great example, what’s number three?
Steven Forth
The third is, I think coming back to what we were just discussing, start preparing a portfolio of pricing actions that you can take. So you should have already thought out as you enter 2024 or or early in 2024a set of actions that you are planning to take or that you could take under different circumstances and think them through. Because let’s pick America’s favorite sport, American football, not soccer.
Mark Stiving
Real football, yeah.
Steven Forth
Or something. But one of the reasons that football teams are so effective is because they planned and they’ve practiced and they know the plays. So what is your pricing playbook? If you have to figure out these halfway through the year, you’re going to be in trouble. So what is your play for increasing prices? Not necessarily saying you are going to increase prices, but there could be an opportunity to increase prices over the year. What’s your playbook for doing that? What’s your playbook? if a competitor slashes prices by 70% and that happens, right? This sort of thing happens. And sometimes it’s unpredictable as to when and where it will happen. And if you have to figure it all out after it happens, you’re going to be floundering. So the strategic planning process is a good time to think about these sort of what if kind of questions. and very few people do this, but I would encourage people to at least consider looking at scenario planning where you plan for more than one scenario. You identify critical uncertainties and you plan for each of the critical uncertainties. That approach would make a lot of sense for pricing.
So one chart that I’ve seen consultants put together that I really like and it almost sounds like you are recommending companies do something like this, and that is just imagine a graph. it’s just going to be essentially a scatter plot. And on one axis you have, what do we think the impact or the profit dollars would be for this action? And the other one would be, how hard is it? Right? What’s the investment to go achieve this? And so if we’ve gone through a whole bunch of different pricing actions, we plot them on this chart, we’re going to go take the ones in the lower right, right? So the ones that are easy to do but have the highest impact, and let’s go do those first. But we only get that chart if we’ve thought through this.
Steven Forth
And again, I would consider pricing actions using a portfolio point of view. So some actions have a higher potential return, but require higher investment. and other actions have a lower investment, lower potential return, but maybe on a shorter timeline. So I think you measure all three of those things, right? What’s the probable timeline for the return? How much effort is involved and how much uncertainty is there now? Now clearly, if something’s going to take a long time as high risk and has a low return, well we don’t want to do that,
Mark Stiving
Right. We’ll wait till everything else is done. Yeah.
Steven Forth
But I think you need a mix of pricing plays. There’s nothing wrong with a hail Mary pass in football. You don’t want to use it every time. You only use it in certain situations, but in certain situations it is the best play possible.
Mark Stiving
Let me ask you to rationalize two things I’ve heard you say during this podcast. One is when I change something, it takes me two years to know if it worked. And the other is you need a portfolio of things you’re working on at the same time.
Steven Forth
So the two years part was, that’s assuming that your cadence is quarterly. So the goal there is to have a faster cadence, probably monthly, but, a monthly cadence is three times as fast as a quarterly cadence.
Mark Stiving
Oh my gosh, Steven, I got to tell you, when I heard you describe that, I thought you were telling me to slow down, not speed up.
Steven Forth
No, I was trying to tell you to speed up.
Mark Stiving
Oh, man!
Steven Forth
Need a faster cadence. Quarterly business reviews, quarterly pricing reviews, quarterly targetsI don’t think are cut it, but coming back to your other point is yeah, I do think you need a portfolio of plays, some of which are long term, some of which are short term, some of which are high risk, high return, some of which are low risk, probably lower return. And you need to be if you’re only doing low risk low return, short-term stuff you’re probably going to dig yourself a hole.
Mark Stiving
Yep.
Steven Forth
If you’re only doing high risk, high return, long-term stuff well, I hope you have patient investors and that some of those bets play out because if they don’t, you’re going to be selling the business.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. So the last question I want to ask you has to do with pricing people pricing departments. And I get this question a lot. I want to hear how you answer it. So how do I know that my pricing change, whatever it is that we changed, made a difference? And the reason I say that is because while I made a pricing change, revenue went up, margins went up, and salespeople said it was all because they did a better job selling.
Yeah. So this is the whole attribution problem, right? Things have multiple causes and how do we unbundle those multiple causes? So I think that actually is something that we should have an entire conversation on. But there is an emerging set of best practices around causal analysis in how you deal with this sort of real world situation where there’s multiple causes for any result. Success has many parents but failure is an orphan.
Mark Stiving
Yep.
Steven Forth
There’s a guy called Judea Pearl who is actually one of the guys who invented the Bayesian networks that current artificial intelligences are based on, he went on to do a lot of work in causal analysis. He has a wonderful book called The Book of Why, which I would encourage everyone to get if you just read one non-pricing book. The Book of Why is actually not a bad candidate.
And this shift to a data rich ecology fueled with artificial intelligences is going to lead to I think a renaissance in causal reasoning and causal understanding. I know this is way too abstract an academic answer for you. and I’ll try and figure out a better way to describe this, but I’m not talking about something that might happen. This has already happened in health economics and outcomes research. People in the healthcare sector are, if we think pricing is complicated, health outcomes are far more complicated than anything we do in pricing and arguably much higher stake and good tools have been developed to answer these sort of causal attribution questions and health care, we need to be learning from these people. They have good statistical models, good causal models that help us to answer those questions.
Mark Stiving
Okay, I will buy that someday in the future. Allow me to quickly share my answer that I always give. Business is a team sport. That’s it. That’s the answer.
Steven Forth
And they’re both right. Exactly. No price increase, there would be no revenue gain. But if sales had not done a cracker jack job and with that price increase in communicating it and realizing it, there would’ve been no revenue gain.
Mark Stiving
Yep. Absolutely.
Steven Forth
Yeah. They’re not mutually exclusive.
Mark Stiving
Yeah. Steven as always, this is a lot of fun. Thank you so much for your time today. If anybody wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Steven Forth
I am easy to find on LinkedIn. So, Steven with a V, Forth, F-O-R-T-H. And my email is [email protected].
Mark Stiving
And those will be in the show notes as well. To our listeners, thank you for your time today. If you enjoyed this, would you please leave us a rating and a review? Those reviews are the currency in podcasts. They help us a lot. And if you have any questions or comments about the podcast or pricing, feel free to email me, [email protected]. Now, go make an impact!
Mark Stiving
Thanks again to Jennings Executive Search for sponsoring our podcast. If you’re looking to hire someone in pricing, I suggest you contact someone who knows pricing people contact Jennings Executive Search.
