You can’t do value pricing without having a conversation about the prospects problems and pain points. The way you talk to customers has a significant impact on your brand, and nothing delivers customer satisfaction quite like consistently valuable communication.
Ed Kless is an expert in value conversation, the Senior Director of Partner Development and Strategy at Sage – a SaaS-based product company, and the co-host The Soul of Enterprise with another value pricing expert, Ron Baker.
In this episode, Ed will dissect the process of creating value discussion, how to do value billing. Ditch the time sheets, frustrated clients and employees, and make more profits.
Why you have to check out today’s podcast:
- Learn why without the ability to have this conversation, value pricing is dead on arrival
- Know why value conversation is the most valuable skill in business
- Learn how to discipline yourself not to be a ‘solutionist’ and not offer solutions too early in the process
“How you sell is a free sample of how you will solve.”
– Ed Kless, quoting Mahan Khalsa
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￼02:28 –Ed does not believe in timesheets, moving away from billing via the hour
04:10 – Comparison between a consultant and a technician in terms of delivering service
05:00 – Value conversation components: the cost, the price, and the perceived value
8:27 – Value conversation explained – ‘How you sell is a free sample of how you solve.’ – Ed quoting Mahan Khalsa
11:33 – People need to be heard – why it is crucial in your value conversation
16:44 – Mahan Khalsa’s Five Golden Questions
- How do you measure it?
- What is it now?
- What do you want it to be?
- What is the value of the difference?
- Over time (usually one year)?
17:39 – Value conversation for product marketing as suppose to making sales
22:01 – The four steps to move off the solution: Listen, Assuage, Move and Close
27:12 – A piece of pricing advice from Ed– “Offer choices. Do not hesitate to come up and compete with yourselves to try to develop choices for the customers.”
“What people want is that they want to felt listened to.” – Ed Kless
“Prospects as other human beings can sense that [when you are not listening] as well.” – Ed Kless
“Even when there is competition, and we make value conversation, people trust us more. They believe us more.” – Mark Stiving, quoting Ed Kless
People and Resources Mentioned
- Ronald Baker
- ￼Peter Black
- Mahan Khalsa Let’s Get Real or Let’s Not Play
- ￼The Soul of Enterprise: Episode 182 – How to Have a Value Conversation
Connect with Ed Kless
Connect with Mark Stiving
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created using Temi, an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Ed Kless: How you sell is a free sample of how you will solve and I think that that is so extraordinarily important, right? This notion of how you go about the sales process really indicates to this prospect or customer or buyer as you say, right? Of how you’re going to be in the relationship.
Mark Stiving: Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast where we discuss pricing, value and the fascinating relationship between them. I’m Mark Stiving. Today, our guest is Ed Kless. Here are three things you really want to know about Ed before we start. He’s a senior director at Sage Accountants Solution, which is a SaaS-based product company. Woohoo! He is a co-host of The Soul of Enterprise, a phenomenal radio show, and podcast and finally, he’s an expert at value conversations. This is a skill that is absolutely critical to pricing and product people as well as to salespeople. Welcome, Ed.
Ed Kless: So glad to be here, Mark.
Mark Stiving: It’s going to be fun. I hope we’ll find out.
Ed Kless: Yeah.
Mark Stiving: How did you get into pricing?
Ed Kless: Oh Gosh, well, I met Ron Baker who is also the co-host of The Soul of Enterprise and he’s the one that really wrote me into this whole pricing thing by his great and convincing work around shifting professional firms away from billing by the hour and to value-based pricing. And I’ll have to blame him for getting into pricing.
Mark Stiving: Well first off, he’s a brilliant guy so I can see how he could pull that off. And were you working mostly in the accounting space at that point in time?
Ed Kless: No, actually when I, I actually read Ron’s book when I was a practitioner. My, my background is I owned a company that did software implementations for a living, mostly accounting, but also some CRM stuff as well. And I read Ron’s book and we did implement some of the things that he talks about in his work. This is his first and early work, the professional’s guide to value pricing. And we did implement some of it. Not all of it. Never really got rid of timesheets completely. However, once I started working for Sage, which is 16 years ago, in three days, my role at sage has really been to help our business partners. So it’s those who sell and implement as well as now refer. So that’s hence the accounting solutions piece, refer our software to others and my role is helping them make their businesses better. And then I talked to Ron and became fully convinced to fill convert to value-based pricing and have helped probably dozens of firms in the Sage channel make the transition away from billing by the hour and to value-based pricing.
Mark Stiving: Very nice. I have to say, of all the jobs that I know of and I’ve been exposed to in the world, the one that I never ever want to do is software implementation.
Ed Kless: Yeah, it’s a shameless work, but you know, those who love it, love it. Right? What I loved about it when I was doing with it is that it is more art than science and that’s what I really appreciated about it, by take taking that artistic approach and saying that there’s really got to be creative ways to help companies solve these problems that they have that go beyond the data.
Mark Stiving: Yeah. And I’ll bet your soft skills, social skills had to be phenomenal to be successful at that.
Ed Kless: They do. They really do have to be strong. And in fact, one of the distinctions that I make between a consultant and a technician is exactly that, you know, a technician could give a rat’s butt about the well-being, the emotional well-being of the person with whom they’re working. Whereas a consultant has to really take both of those things into account. Not only the, the technical side of the problem, but the people side as well. And you’ve got to marry those two things together. And the most successful consultants are those that are able to do those things together. And I learned that lesson by the way, from a guy by the name of Peter Block, who’s my go to person on consulting theory and practice.
Mark Stiving: Hey, I agree with that. And I would say it’s probably the most successful business people marry those two things together.
Ed Kless: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Fair enough.
Mark Stiving: Hey, let’s jump into what we really want to talk about today and that’s value conversations and kind of start by asking what is a value conversation and you describe this to someone. What do you say?
Ed Kless: Value conversation is, is simply this, you know, the three things, as you and your audience I’m sure is aware of, that take place in any transaction is the cost to you as a provider, the price that you’re going to charge and the perceived value of the customer. And those are the three interrelated variables that everyone is concerned with. I mean, a lot of people just see it as a two, but there’s really those three, right? That value and the value pieces that value conversation. I often tell this story, it’s like, look, your customers, your prospects are never going to care about your costs. Never. It’s not their job to care about your costs. Like nobody walks into Starbucks and goes, I hope they have their cost structure figured correctly. Like nobody does that, right? So nobody cares about your cost. So to argue costs with them is completely pointless. And in fact, we get frustrated when people do it, right? Now, Price. Prices. The customers always want prices to be lower. This is a universal truth. This is no kidding. Customers want prices and be really, there’s a shock. And to me, blaming, not getting business on, on your price is akin to blaming an airline crash on gravity. Right? Why did the plane crash? It was gravity, right? I was like…
Mark Stiving: Well that’s a true statement, isn’t it?
Ed Kless: Yeah, well it is. Exactly. Every plane crash. Why would it be gravity? One, if there weren’t any gravity, we wouldn’t have any plane crash. Well, no kidding. That is, but you can’t blame the price for that. I think it’s ridiculous. And of course, then the third component is this value. And if you think about this, it is the one element of the three where the provider and the customer are both on the same side because we as providers and them as customers both want to maximize the value that the customer gets. As a professional. That’s what I want to do. I want to maximize the value that I provide to my customer. They want to maximize the value they get from me. So Lo and behold, isn’t this interesting? That’s where the conversation should start. It’s the one element of those three where our interests are completely mutually aligned.
Mark Stiving: Yes, and in the beginning, before a customer buys from us, or I should say before buyer buys from us, what we’re trying to do is explore with them to figure out how much value would our product really have for them. And one of the things I often say is, look, maybe our salespeople know our product really well, but they don’t know that customer. Maybe our customer knows themselves and their business really well, but they don’t know our product. And the only way we truly figure out how much value there’s going to be when we put those two together is to have a value conversation. Does that make sense to you?
Ed Kless: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s crucial. And, and look, I work with most firms that are able to have this individual one on one conversations with every single customer. And in my opinion, it’s been something that they’ve just let slide past them that, you know, I’ve got a feeling that AT&T would love to have a conversation with me on a one on one basis to decide why I’m adding a line, a cell phone line. Oh, your son’s starting to drive really, right? This is all information that they would find really valuable, but they can’t because they have so many transactions that they’ve got to deal with in the professional space and in other spaces as well. It’s great that you have this ability to have this individual one on one conversation about value. And I think it’s something that far too many firms just let slip past them. And it’s, it’s quite a shame because it not only is it interesting from a business standpoint but, and I think this is probably one of the most profound things that I’ve ever heard said about a value conversation. And this comes from name of Mahan Khalsa who wrote a great book called Let’s Get Real or Let’s Not Play. He said, how you sell is a free sample of how you will solve. And I think that that is so extraordinarily important, right? This notion of how you go about the sales process really indicates to this prospect or customer or buyer as you say, right? Of how you’re going to be in the relationship.
Mark Stiving: That makes a ton of sense. So Ed, can you, I’m going to give you a big challenge. Okay?
Ed Kless: All right.
Mark Stiving: In early 2018, you and Ron did an entire soul of enterprise show on value conversations. You guys spent an hour talking about how to do this. And by the way, phenomenal. Everybody should go listen to that podcast. It was amazing. Can you explain that in two minutes or less? You don’t have to do in depth, just tell us what it is.
Ed Kless: Yeah, and some of it is, what I just talked about is really based on the, and thank you for saying that it was such a great show, but it is based on this work of this Guy Mahan Khalsa and his great book, Let’s Get Real. And he, I mean he’s written a whole book about it. This thing called a value conversation is just absolutely outstanding. So now I’m going to be doing a summary of a summary, which…
Mark Stiving: Okay, perfect.
Ed Kless: It’s like the executive summary of the executive summary. Just to say this is that it really has to be using language that the prospect or customer understands. Everything is talked about from their perspective. Right. One of the things that I… That drives me nuts about people who say they have value conversations is something like this. Well, you know, we got their numbers and we put them into our ROI spreadsheet and then it came out and said that they were going to say 0.7 to 9 cents per transaction. I’m like, are you freaking kidding me? That is not your, that’s not contra customer (inaudible) because the customer is going to go, you know, who has the problem? You and your spreadsheet have the problem. Right? And to, to me the notion of the value conversation is more about the customer prospect, buyer feeling like they are heard, right? Um, you know, and this, and this goes back to, you know, however you wanna call it, it’s either, you know, it’s either one of Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People or it’s part of the pair of Saint Francis.
However you want to, right? Seek, seek first to understand, then be understood, right? Seek first to understand then you understood and what people want is they want to felt listened to. And I think that one of the big mistakes that salespeople and even marketers to a certain extent make is they hear keywords. I’m going to use a real technology example. Remember the, I don’t do this anymore, but you ever go, if you go to the Google website, you can type in keywords and there’s certain, there are two buttons. There’s search, and I’m feeling lucky, right? Have you ever hit on, you know what I’m feeling lucky is?
Mark Stiving: I have never hit it.
Ed Kless: Okay? So I’m feeling lucky is this. I’m feeling lucky as I am so good at putting in keywords that I know that the first thing that Google returns is the thing I’m going to be looking for, right? So in other words, jump past the screen that shows me the search results. Just go right to the first one, right? That’s what I’m feeling lucky is. And I think that salespeople and marketers do this sometimes in the process, right? They hear keywords that a prospect says and all of a sudden they’re like, I’m feeling lucky. Boom, this is what you need. And they do the data dump on them and…
Mark Stiving: They’re thinking, here’s the script I know…
Ed Kless: that’s right.
Mark Stiving: Gave me the opening. Let me spew my script.
Ed Kless: Let me spew my script. And here’s the thing. Maybe even if you’re really good, maybe 98% of the time you guess right? Right. You get it right? But there’s 2% of the time when you get it wrong. And then it goes really wrong and really bad. But here’s the thing, even in the 98% of the time when you do that, the prospect does not feel heard. We know as human beings when we’re being heard. Mark, I’m sure you’ve had this phenomenon, I know you do a lot of travel as do I. You get, you get back into your room after a long day of teaching pricing and you make that you, you know, obligatory call home, right? Cause they… This is, that’s a good thing and I get that. But you also think, okay, now is a good time for me to catch up on my email, right? So let’s say you’re there on the phone and quietly typing on your keyboard and your spouse or significant other says to you, you’re not listening to me. How do they know? Right? How do they know? Right? And it’s because we’re just innate human beings. And my point is, and then I’ll say I’m sorry for dominating, but, but my point is, is that prospects as other human beings can sense that as well.
Mark Stiving: How’s the podcast going? Are you getting value? Research shows the people don’t really value what they get for free, but I’m hoping you’ll prove this research wrong. Please demonstrate to us and the entire world that you value this podcast. Would you please pause the podcast? Subscribe if you haven’t already done so. Rate the podcast and leave us a short review. You’d be doing a huge favor and research shows, if you invest this little bit of time, you’ll probably like the podcast even more. Win, win, pause, do it now. We’ll wait for you.
Mark Stiving: As a trainer, which I know you do a bunch of training as well. As a trainer, one of the problems I always found myself with and I had to force myself not to do this, is somebody starts to ask a question and I already know what they’re going to ask because I’ve, I’ve taught this class hundreds of times. I can’t, Oh, let me answer that. It’s just going ahead, ask the question, we’ll let it all come out before we start to answer. It’s, it’s the same thing, right? That people need to feel hurt.
Ed Kless: They do. They, they need to feel that hurt as human beings. We need to feel heard, which to me, honestly, one of the opening, the opening questions in the value conversation without getting into the details, but I think this is so important. I want to mention it is simply this question is now an appropriate time for me to ask you questions. And I think that it’s, it’s, it’s a crucial, crucial step that is so often missed.
Mark Stiving: Yeah.
Ed Kless: Right?
Mark Stiving: Excellent. So I want to make sure that we get to the, to the meat of the value conversation.
Ed Kless: Right.
Mark Stiving: And so what we’re essentially doing is collecting the problems that our buyers have and then we’re finding ways to figure out what the value of solving each one of those problems is.
Ed Kless: Correct.
Mark Stiving: And it’s a method, it’s a technique that we could teach salespeople how to do this.
Ed Kless: Yup. Yup.
Mark Stiving: And it works amazingly well.
Ed Kless: Yeah. We gotta make quick step through that or no?
Mark Stiving: Oh yeah. Let’s step to it really fast.
Ed Kless: Okay, stepping through it really fast as one, once we have…
Mark Stiving: By the way, you failed at two minutes. Okay, go ahead.
Ed Kless: Yeah. Big Time. So we have this complete list, we have this list of all of their potential problems, challenges. And then I think the first thing that after we do, that is to say, Hey, listen to what? Let’s prioritize. Which, which of these do you think is the most important? Right? So I think another mistake that people make is they oftentimes just you talk about the first thing that the prospect says, but oftentimes that’s not the most important. So we want to get that complete list out first. Then we want to talk about which one do they think is the most important. And once they identify that, then we ask a very simple question, this is a problem, how do you measure this problem out? How do you know it’s a problem? What’s the evidence that you have? And that’s the key. I like that word a lot. What’s the evidence that you have that this is a problem and that kind of, all right, well we’ve got to think about that, right? Well, let’s see. The evidence is that we have a lot of missed shipments. Okay, great. So now we can drop into our, what Mahan Khalsa calls the five golden questions. How do you measure it? What is it now? What do you think it should be? What’s the value of the difference between those two and then over what period of time? Right?
Mark Stiving: I think those are so brilliant and it gets to the point.
Ed Kless: Yup.
Mark Stiving: Now what I want to do is I want to throw you a curve ball. You may have thought about these things before, you may not have?
Ed Kless: Yeah, yeah.
Mark Stiving: Everything that you’ve described or we’ve talked about so far, really has to do with the relationship between a salesperson and a buyer.
Mark Stiving: You work for a product company. I teach product companies all the time, and what I think is that these value conversations could be really valuable to product marketers, to product managers in the following sense. You brought up AT&T and what AT&T like to know if you had a son and okay, they can’t do that for every buyer, but that if they did that for enough customers, they would suddenly know, oh, this is what my market segment cares about. These are the things that are valuable or aren’t valuable in my market segments. Have you guys used this in a, in more of a product method, as opposed to a salesman?
Ed Kless: I’m not on the product side at Sage. I would hope that we would do something like this and we do have product marketing people who are, whose job it is to do this. My sense is that we do tend to pay attention to what customer requests are and what people are looking for in terms of software enhancements, or why we’re losing deals, let’s say to a competitor. But do we do a great job at then understanding from a value conversation what those, what the market would be saying about those in general? Probably not. Uh, I, you know, I don’t know that for sure, but I would, I would tend to say that that people don’t. I think it’s a brilliant idea though. I mean that’s exactly what you have to do. You have to have some understanding of what the again, the words that I use are perceived value of the customer are in general and where necessary and in specific where practical.
Mark Stiving: Yeah. I’ve been coaching a bunch of clients lately and I created this thing I call a value table and a value table essentially has four columns. It has more, but we’ll call it four columns. Problem, solution, result, value and the problem and the solution, the solutions or feature, the problems we’re solving, the result is what you just talked about in the, hey, we’re going to ship more, we’re going to ship more regularly, we’re going to be on time more often, and we can put a metric around that and then the value is using Mahan Khalsas’ five golden questions to say, how do we get to a dollar value? Now we know every customer is different, but if we could do that for a half dozen different customers, suddenly our product people understand our products, which I find amazing that our companies, our own people don’t even understand the value of our products very well.
Ed Kless: No, it’s true. I mean, and that’s one of the things that I have done a lot with Sage is work with our partner organizations on educating salespeople. I don’t use training, by the way, I use the word educate. I find that to be a much stronger word than training at the, at the risk of getting bleeped. There’s a very specific reason we have a colleague at Sage named Dan Mars has a great line about this. He goes, if you want to know the difference between training and education, it’s this, do you want your 17-year-old or 16-year-old girl going to sex training or sex education class? And education has a…
Mark Stiving: So, okay, so now I’m thinking hard about that for a second, about what I would rather have my salespeople go to sales education or to sales training?
Ed Kless: Right. And education. Education has a moral component. In fact, the word education comes from the same Latin root as the word for extruding. Because what you’re doing in education is you’re not putting in… Right, training you’re putting stuff in. In education, what you’re doing is you’re extracting out what they already have. Right? So the notion is that you, as the educator, are the one… you’re not, you’re not stuffing them with stuff. You’re using what they already have and, and getting it to come to the surface, extracting it out from them.
Mark Stiving: I think that it’s absolutely right. It’s absolutely right. One of the things about value conversations that I always, I always like, or I am amazed by, is this conversation about getting off the solution.
Ed Kless: Oh yeah.
Mark Stiving: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Ed Kless: Yeah. And moving off the solution. Again, it’s all Mahan Khalsa can’t say this guy’s name enough. He’s, by the way, happily retired in Hawaii by the way as well. He should be. Yeah. Because this is a big thing and it gets back actually back to that conversation about the Google search, right? And the mistake that we make by jumping in and saying, hey listen, here’s the solution, it has the result of a solutionist mentality, which is, I know what your answer is already and which is great, but again, the customer doesn’t feel heard. How are they heard? Well, when you, when you pivot and move away from the solution, as much as we want to share our solution with them, that is a way to short circuit the value conversation because once you go to solution, you’ve lost the potential to talk about perceived value to them. So it’s very simple, this… the phrase, It’s listening,is the first step, right? Then you have to assuage them in some way, right? Then there’s this move or pivot and then finally there’s the close. So a four-step process, really three. But the first step is just to listen, all right, so we assuage them. We say someone comes to us and say, hey, we’re looking for, I’m going to use the example I use all the time cause I’m most familiar with it. I need a report that shows me inventory turns by item category. Whether or not your system has that report or not as irrelevant, completely irrelevant. What you say is, thanks for asking. That’s the assuagement. We do stuff like that all the time. In other words, we’re giving them some insight that yes, you’ve asked an appropriate question to someone who potentially has the answer for you. So thanks for asking. We do stuff like that all the time. However, what we found is that oftentimes when people ask for some kind of as customized or specialized report, there’s another way of getting that information out of the system that doesn’t really necessarily involve customization. That’s the move though. So the fourth part, the close. So would it be okay if I asked you a couple of questions as to what’s driving your need for this inventory turns by item category report?
Mark Stiving: You know what’s so hard about what you just said is you could ask the question, do you have this type of report? And as a salesperson, I want to say, Oh yeah, we got it.
Ed Kless: Of course. In fact, it’s so good. We have three versions of it. Let me show you all three.
Mark Stiving: And what you just went through was a way to, instead of saying yes, by the way, we didn’t say no, right? We just transitioned this into, oh, I want to find out what you’re really after because it’s not just this report. There are really other things going on.
Ed Kless: Exactly. Exactly the case.
Mark Stiving: I just find that so fascinating because I want to say yes. Heck, I always want to say yes.
Ed Kless: Oh, you have to fight every fiber in your being and not to do it. And look, the way I sometimes introduce this is, is I’ll talk about this thing called solutionism, right? And I’ll, and I’ll say, hi, my name is Ed and I’m a recovering solutionist cause I’m still recovering. I still do it. I still do it.
Mark Stiving: I don’t know how you don’t. It’s just so hard. You have to walk into the conversation knowing this is about to become a value conversation. It’s not letting me go sell my product. Let me go. All right and pitch my product.
Ed Kless: and let me say something really, California sits in a hot tub like soft, right? This is where I think that meditation and mindfulness exercises are so important, right? To be able to take a couple of breaths as you’re walking into a meeting and get yourself into a state where you’re like, it’s not about me. It’s about them. Right?
Mark Stiving: Yes. I actually really liked that. When you guys were talking about it on the hour-long podcast, you made a, made a special point that says, look, I want to do a value conversation. They know that it’s about them. They know that I’m listening to them and so they care so much more. We had a conversation the other day and you had said to me, I had talked to you about the will I versus which one concepts and I love will I, which one? All my listeners have heard it. And if they haven’t, go back and listen to any of my other podcasts, you’ll know about it. But, uh, but I’d asked, you know, this value conversation makes a lot of sense if I’m doing a will I situation because I don’t have any competitor there. But as soon as I start to have a competitor now it’s, well, what do I do that’s better than my competition? And you said something to me that I thought was… It was really fascinating. It was very insightful. Are you willing to share it? Do you remember what you said?
Ed Kless: I have an idea, but I don’t, but what? Go ahead and tell me.
Mark Stiving: You had said, even when there’s competition and we do a value conversation, people trust us more. They believe us more.
Ed Kless: Correct. And that’s actually going back to something earlier in our conversation. How you sell is a free sample of how you will solve. So just being willing to have the value conversation is a differentiator, period.
Mark Stiving: I think that’s brilliant. So, so I ran into a statistic that said from Corporate Visions it said 74% of buyers choose the sales rep. That was first to add value and insights. Isn’t that exactly what you just said?
Ed Kless: Shocking. I have data to prove what I’ve always believed
Mark Stiving: You can borrow that. That’s okay.
Ed Kless: I can say 74 you know what I’m going to add just because it sounds more precise. 74.3% because it makes it, yeah, it makes us sound better if you add up precision after the decimal point.
Mark Stiving: Because if it was just 75% just be like, oh someone rounded that.
Ed Kless: Yeah, exactly. It’s like a nine pricing.
Mark Stiving: Exactly.
Mark Stiving: Exactly. And this has just been fabulous, but I want to wrap it up with my favorite last question. What’s one piece of pricing advice that you would give our listeners that you think could have a big impact on their business?
Ed Kless: and it’s something we haven’t talked about today and that’s offer choices, right? Offer choices. That to me is, the other thing too is don’t hesitate to come up with and compete with yourself to try to, to try to develop choices that the customer because customers love… We, as human beings, love choices. So offer choices.
Mark Stiving: And by that your good, better, best fits in that category.
Ed Kless: Absolutely. Good, better, best fits in that category. But there are other ways to do that clearly. But uh, but make sure that you are giving the customer choice and that, you know, that goes back to your, which one, right? Stuff too.
Mark Stiving: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Ed, thank you so much for your time today. If anyone wants to contact you, how can they do that?
Ed Kless: Actually the best place to, to contact me is to go out to The Soul of Enterprise site. So just thesoulofenterprise.com. That’s the radio show. You can send me an email at Ed.Kless@gmail.com. I’m the only Ed Kless in the world. I’m real easy to find.
Mark Stiving: Nice. How’d you pull that off?
Ed Kless: I don’t know. My parents have a unique name though, you know?
Mark Stiving: Yeah. Hey, I also suggest you go subscribe to The Soul of Enterprise. It’s a fabulous podcast.
Ed Kless: Thanks so much, Mark, for saying that. Appreciate it.
Mark Stiving: No worries. So that was episode 24 probably one of our best. My favorite part today, what do you think? Um, I really liked the solution and getting off the solution was really good. What was your favorite part? Tell us in the comments or wherever you download and listen and while you’re at it, would you please give us a five-star review? We would hugely appreciate it. If you have any questions or comments about the podcast or about pricing, feel free to email me at email@example.com now go make an impact.